Redline 10w60 - 2011 M3 - Mix?

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Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
CATERHAM - I believe that the use of the Castrol Ester version of 10W-60 was originally specified to assist with some production/design/warranty issues with certain BMW engines (one in particular) of over a decade ago

I once had paperwork on this but can't locate it as of now



Yes, the very early E46 M3s had bearing failures and BMW panicked, and required TWS going forward. They just backed down from this and now allow any LL-01 oil.



Originally Posted By: BigMac

Well yes, that too. I do plan to track it occasionally.

For what it's worth, I work at Vivid Racing here in Gilbert, AZ.


I know Vivid. I lived in AZ for four years (school).
 
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
CATERHAM - I believe that the use of the Castrol Ester version of 10W-60 was originally specified to assist with some production/design/warranty issues with certain BMW engines (one in particular) of over a decade ago

I once had paperwork on this but can't locate it as of now

Hi Doug,

Yes I know that was the original reason some 10 years ago.
Why the current version is still being specified although inconsistently certainly goes beyond necessary lubrication requirements.

I must say I do prefer the old oil grade recommendation charts where practically every grade under the sun was specified with the conditions for their use. But that left too much latitude for misuse by less than knowledgeable owners resulting in otherwise avoidable warranty claims. The advent of new broad range synthetic multi-grade oils that are true "all seasons" lubes solved that problem for the OEMs.
Plus the use of virtually universal OEM electronic safety management controls that step in to prevent lubrication issues from occurring.
 
Hi,
CATERHAM - I agree with your musings here. It is also now coming to pass that the OEMs will be much more specific and demanding into the future

"(OATS) OEMs want ever-more-specific lubricants, both for first fill and to protect their aftermarket. On the other hand, lubes makers need to produce lubricants that meet a range of different vehicles in order to be able to market product profitably."

It will become uneconomic for small Blenders to keep up at viable levels

As mentioned here before BMW do try various field trials via third parties with the Nurburgring as just one "platform". Castrol at one stage had hundreds of vehicles "linked" up in field testing for VW

My information is that we can expect OEM specific lubricant specs that not all Oil Companies will be interested in meeting. This may mean more OEM/Oil Company linkups with perhaps some binding Clauses
 
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: dparm
I know Vivid. I lived in AZ for four years (school).


Tempe, or are you also a Wildcat alumnus, like myself?



Wildcat (BSBA Management Information Systems, 2007). I spent a lot of time in the Phoenix area visiting friends.
 
Originally Posted By: dparm
...They just backed down from this and now allow any LL-01 oil...


I read the document that started this new "BMW oil furor" and quite frankly it looks like a typo to me.

In the first place, the new document allows ONLY TWO very specific oils - TWS and Edge Professional 5w-30. NO other LL01 are listed, so NO other LL01 oils are allowed. Anything else that happens to meet LL01 is excluded because it's not listed in the Bulletin.

In the second place, despite all the speculation, BMW has never even hinted that anything other than TWS was OK for S85 and S65 engines. I think that the Castrol Edge Pro is for a different engine series and BMW will correct the erroneous document in due course.
 
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Originally Posted By: jaj
Originally Posted By: dparm
...They just backed down from this and now allow any LL-01 oil...


I read the document that started this new "BMW oil furor" and quite frankly it looks like a typo to me.

In the first place, the new document allows ONLY TWO very specific oils - TWS and Edge Professional 5w-30. NO other LL01 are listed, so NO other LL01 oils are allowed. Anything else that happens to meet LL01 is excluded because it's not listed in the Bulletin.

In the second place, despite all the speculation, BMW has never even hinted that anything other than TWS was OK for S85 and S65 engines. I think that the Castrol Edge Pro is for a different engine series and BMW will correct the erroneous document in due course.



That's not how a lot of others interpret it. From the other thread:


Originally Posted By: dparm
I've seen examples of this intentional ambiguity in the past, and the courts typically side with the consumer who is acting in good faith.

The more I look at this:

BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils for BMW M vehicles equipped with S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines


...the more I am beginning to believe that LL-01 is okay. I'm reading it as, "If you have an M car with the S54, S62, S65, or S85 engine, you can use LL-01. If your M car has any other engine, you cannot use LL-01."

I would've written it as:

For BMW M vehicles equipped with S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines: BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils
 
I find it so hard to believe that after 11years of BMW INSISTING only TWS 10W-60 will protect my S54 engine.....that I now can fill up with 5W-30!

But my Rod bearings did [censored] out at 60,000 miles. What to do, what do do? Give this set a try on 5W-30?
 
Originally Posted By: ammolab
I find it so hard to believe that after 11years of BMW INSISTING only TWS 10W-60 will protect my S54 engine.....that I now can fill up with 5W-30!

But my Rod bearings did [censored] out at 60,000 miles. What to do, what do do? Give this set a try on 5W-30?

Not sure, if that is the case, I would get some thick 5W40 like redline.
 
Originally Posted By: ammolab
I find it so hard to believe that after 11years of BMW INSISTING only TWS 10W-60 will protect my S54 engine.....that I now can fill up with 5W-30!

But my Rod bearings did [censored] out at 60,000 miles. What to do, what do do? Give this set a try on 5W-30?



Your rod bearings went to [censored] because it was an early motor. I see you posting this all the time as if the S54 is some unreliable engine and the BMW screwed up all of them. No, just the early ones had a mechanical issue, unrelated to the oil. The TWS held them together longer than most other oils would have, but....failure was imminent regardless of oil used.


However - I wouldn't recommend any 5W-30, in any BMW except MAYBE the absolute newest ones. I'm not nearly as familiar with those. Everybody I've ever met who ran the BMW 5W-30 had vanos rattle, oil consumption, and massive lifter noise after comming off track.
 
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After reading up on the poor machining and ridiculously tight rod bearing and rod side clearances in BMW M3 V8's, I' sure wouldn't be running 10W60. And I was known here as the 'thick oil king' for those who have forgotten?
 
Originally Posted By: sprintman
After reading up on the poor machining and ridiculously tight rod bearing and rod side clearances in BMW M3 V8's, I' sure wouldn't be running 10W60. And I was known here as the 'thick oil king' for those who have forgotten?

I do not own M3 (wish I do, though lol) but from what I have saw here, it seems that RL 5W40 would be good sollution. It is thick 5W40, it has very good NOACK of 6%, I think HTHS is 4.3.
 
Originally Posted By: sprintman
After reading up on the poor machining and ridiculously tight rod bearing and rod side clearances in BMW M3 V8's, I' sure wouldn't be running 10W60. And I was known here as the 'thick oil king' for those who have forgotten?


Ya. It seems as if it has been some time since the Motor Werks actually built a reliable HP engine.
 
Originally Posted By: KenO
Originally Posted By: ammolab
I find it so hard to believe that after 11years of BMW INSISTING only TWS 10W-60 will protect my S54 engine.....that I now can fill up with 5W-30!

But my Rod bearings did [censored] out at 60,000 miles. What to do, what do do? Give this set a try on 5W-30?



Your rod bearings went to [censored] because it was an early motor. I see you posting this all the time as if the S54 is some unreliable engine and the BMW screwed up all of them. No, just the early ones had a mechanical issue, unrelated to the oil. The TWS held them together longer than most other oils would have, but....failure was imminent regardless of oil used.


However - I wouldn't recommend any 5W-30, in any BMW except MAYBE the absolute newest ones. I'm not nearly as familiar with those. Everybody I've ever met who ran the BMW 5W-30 had vanos rattle, oil consumption, and massive lifter noise after comming off track.


Just when did S54 engines stop having Rod bearing issues? If it is an "early" issue...what year mfg is "late"? And with all the history of the S54, BMW went on to mfg different engines that run TWS and also have rod bearing issues?

I will continue to run TWS and pray it is the cure and not the cause!
 
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Originally Posted By: ammolab

I will continue to run TWS and pray it is the cure and not the cause!



There is some anecdotal evidence that TWS is exacerbating bearing issues in the early E92 M3s.
 
Originally Posted By: ammolab
Originally Posted By: KenO
Originally Posted By: ammolab
I find it so hard to believe that after 11years of BMW INSISTING only TWS 10W-60 will protect my S54 engine.....that I now can fill up with 5W-30!

But my Rod bearings did [censored] out at 60,000 miles. What to do, what do do? Give this set a try on 5W-30?



Your rod bearings went to [censored] because it was an early motor. I see you posting this all the time as if the S54 is some unreliable engine and the BMW screwed up all of them. No, just the early ones had a mechanical issue, unrelated to the oil. The TWS held them together longer than most other oils would have, but....failure was imminent regardless of oil used.


However - I wouldn't recommend any 5W-30, in any BMW except MAYBE the absolute newest ones. I'm not nearly as familiar with those. Everybody I've ever met who ran the BMW 5W-30 had vanos rattle, oil consumption, and massive lifter noise after comming off track.


Just when did S54 engines stop having Rod bearing issues? If it is an "early" issue...what year mfg is "late"? And with all the history of the S54, BMW went on to mfg different engines that run TWS and also have rod bearing issues?

I will continue to run TWS and pray it is the cure and not the cause!


'02-'03 model years were effected (and late '01's in the S54 M Coupe). And TWS is DEFINITELY the cute, and absolutely NOT the cause.


And here's the actual .pdf from BMW (same as whats quoted below: http://members.roadfly.org/kmurph/BearingsSB.pdf

Quote:
SUBJECT
Service Action: E46 M3 S54 Connecting Rod Bearings Replacement


MODEL
E46: M3 coupe/convertible with S54B32 produced from 02/12/2001 up to 05/22/2003


SITUATION
The connecting rod bearings installed in M3 coupe/convertible vehicles produced from February 2001 through May 2003 were not manufactured to BMW quality standards. As a result, the connecting rod bearings are susceptible to overheating and subsequent premature failure if vehicles are driven at higher engine speeds over an extended timeframe. This condition will cause a total engine failure.

A Service Action will be conducted on those vehicles to replace the connecting rod bearings. Additionally, the engine control module will be programmed with the latest software. Customers will be mailed letters notifying them of the Service Action shortly (copy of letter, Q & A list are attached).

The M3 vehicles produced from October 2001 through February 2002, which already had the Connecting Rod Bearings/Oil Pump Campaign 356 (SIB11 02 03) previously performed, are also affected by this Service Action.

IMPORTANT NOTE:

All M3 coupe/convertible vehicles equipped with SMG transmission affected by this Service Action Campaign are also in the range of the Service Action # 423: Reprogramming of the SMG Control Module with DIS CD 39 (SI B23 05 04). Make sure that both Service Actions are performed during the same service visit.

To minimize the customer inconvenience caused by this Service Action, you may pick-up (and deliver after repair) the affected vehicle from customer's home and provide appropriate alternative transportation.

Customers will be impressed when you return their cars cleaned inside and out and with a full tank of gas. Reimbursement information for the vehicle fueling and valet costs may be found in the Warranty portion of this bulletin.

AFFECTED VEHICLES
This Service Action involves E46 M3 coupe/convertible vehicles with S54B32 engines which were produced from February 12, 2001 up to May 22, 2003.

In order to determine if a specific vehicle is affected by this Service Action, it will be necessary to utilize the "Service Menu" of the DCS (Dealer Communication System). Based on the response of the system, either proceed with the corrective action or take no further action.

The Chassis Number Ranges listed below are only for informational purposes and are not to be considered as the only deciding factor.

Model
Chassis Number Range

M3 convertible
EX20040 - EX24999
PK00000 – PK03913

M3 coupe
JR10051 – JR23641

CORRECTION
In the affected vehicles, replace the connecting rod bearings. Reprogram DME control module
 
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And they decided to specify TWS, which will actually run hotter and retain more heat than an LL-01 oil. Smart idea.
 
Anyone else feel like this "cure or cause" thing is a slightly silly false dichotomy?
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Anyone else feel like this "cure or cause" thing is a slightly silly false dichotomy?



Just go to the M3 forums...it's way past that point.
 
Hi,
KenO - Yes, that's the Memo/Service Bulletin I alluded to - I couldn't find my copy!!

The "wonderful" Castrol ester based 10W-60 lubricant was simply a quick fix/precautionary move. Even its forerunner the original German ester based 15W-50 Formula R Synthetic of the late 1970s was a great product - I know it very well indeed!

This is somewhat the same as the 20W-50 being developed by Duckhams for the original Mini of 1959. The SAE20W-30 or SAE20W20 lubricants that worked well in the Ä" engines simply did not work in these engines due to permanent shearing (combined engine/gearbox). Then the 20W-50 caused other problems in the Mini such as oil fump drives and pumps.......on cold starts.........

I seen similar issues with heavy high speed diesel engines in some German trucks of a decade or two ago - but that's another story!
 
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