Red Line 5W-30 at operating temp

[Finklejag]

Okay guys, help me understand this. I keep reading on here that Red Line 5w30 is thicker at operating temperature then a 10W-40 oil? When I look at its specs, I don't see it.

Vis @ 100°C, cSt 10.6
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 62

Those are average 30 weight numbers. I am coming up on a OCI, and I'm looking to maybe switch to a thinner oil. I been running Red Line 5W-40 the last two OCI's. I drive the majority in the city. I live only 4.2 miles from my work. I want to stay using a Ester based oil with a low Noack to help fight valve deposits.

 

[BobFout]

They are referring to HTHS.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: Finklejag
I am coming up on a OCI, and I'm looking to maybe switch to a thinner oil. I been running Red Line 5W-40 the last two OCI's. I drive the majority in the city. I live only 4.2 miles from my work. I want to stay using a Ester based oil with a low Noack to help fight valve deposits.


Redline 5w30 is the one, then.

 

[addyguy]

The HT/HS value for RL 5w30 is 3.8, which is above the 3.7 'floor' for a 10W-40 oil, that is why the statement is made.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Finklejag
I been running Red Line 5W-40 the last two OCI's. I drive the majority in the city. I live only 4.2 miles from my work. I want to stay using a Ester based oil with a low Noack to help fight valve deposits.

As A_Harman suggested RL 5w30 would be lighter than the RL 5W-40 but if you want to go with a true 30wt oil that's as light as possible on start-up, and you want to stick with RL, I'd suggest a 50/50 blend of their 0w30 and 0W-40.
This will give you a heavy 0w30 with an terrific 190 VI.

 

[SL8R]

Originally Posted By: Finklejag
I want to stay using a Ester based oil with a low Noack to help fight valve deposits.


Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

As A_Harman suggested RL 5w30 would be lighter than the RL 5W-40 but if you want to go with a true 30wt oil that's as light as possible on start-up, and you want to stick with RL, I'd suggest a 50/50 blend of their 0w30 and 0W-40. This will give you a heavy 0w30 with an terrific 190 VI.


He wants low NOACK. The 0w30 and 0W-40 redline oils have a 50% higher NOACK (9%) than the 5w30 (6%). That is the price you pay for the ultra high VI. Also, the flashpoint on the 0w30 and 0W-40 is 218 Celsius compared to 252 Celsius for the 5w30.

 

[CATERHAM]

A NOACK of 9% is low by any standard.
And what's unacceptable with a 218C flashpoint? Nothing.

 

[Ben99GT]

I think he's just pointing out that the high VI of the 0W oils doesn't come without a price, I also think this factor's in to Dave's general recommendations as well.

Dave generally pushes 5w30 over 10w30 in pretty much all conditions, at least over the last year or two. He's done so with me, he did so with Jeff...

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
I think he's just pointing out that the high VI of the 0W oils doesn't come without a price,

And my point is that it's a very small price indeed to get a superior lubricant.
In addition, RL's 0W-XX oils NOACK percentages stack up very favourably when compared to other oil companies.
And it is only the RL 0W-40 grade that uses any significant amount of VII's and I would suspect it's lower than other competing 0W-40's like M1.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
I think he's just pointing out that the high VI of the 0W oils doesn't come without a price,

And my point is that it's a very small price indeed to get a superior lubricant.


A superior lubricant for certain conditions and climates, perhaps. I just don't agree that VI determines a lubricant's worth in all cases.

 

[CATERHAM]

No not if you don't start an engine a lot and it spends 95% of it's life at operating temperature.
But for most people, even in mild climates, frequent cold starts and short trips of under a half hour duration is often the case; it certainly is for me.
That's probably why many OEM's spec' high VI oils.

Also at the race track a high VI oil has a distinct advantage and of course the more naturally high the better. The higher you can safely rev' a cold engine the better.
It's the main reason M1 0W-40 is often used as a race oil.

 

[Finklejag]

So with a viscosity of 10.6 @100c. Is the 5w30 to thin at start up for my GTI? Most 5w30 VW 502 spec oils fall between 11.8-12.3 @ 100c.

 

[CATERHAM]

The KV100 spec' does not correlate consistently with operational viscosity in a running engine. The HTHS vis does, so if you know the HTHS vis of an oil you can disregard the KV100 spec'.
RL 5w30 has a HTHS vis of 3.8cP which is consistent with a 40wt oil. It all has to do with RL's unique ester chemistry and it is the reason RL says you can drop a grade when switching to their 5W-XX and heavier oils.
To give an example, RL 5w30 is actually slightly heavier at operating temp's than M1 0W-40 and considerably heavier at lower temp's. So it's anything but too thin for you VW.
The following explains in more detail:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/2001169/

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
I think he's just pointing out that the high VI of the 0W oils doesn't come without a price,

And my point is that it's a very small price indeed to get a superior lubricant.
In addition, RL's 0W-XX oils NOACK percentages stack up very favourably when compared to other oil companies.
And it is only the RL 0W-40 grade that uses any significant amount of VII's and I would suspect it's lower than other competing 0W-40's like M1.


I hope your bolded suspicions above are correct, since I might just try your 0W-30/40 blend next winter (maybe even next OCI if it falls before winter).

If we were going to have a Canuck-type winter here, (staying at or below 0*F for weeks at a time) I would even try a 50/50 of RL 5w30 and 0W-20!!

 

[Finklejag]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The KV100 spec' does not correlate consistently with operational viscosity in a running engine. The HTHS vis does, so if you know the HTHS vis of an oil you can disregard the KV100 spec'.
RL 5w30 has a HTHS vis of 3.8cP which is consistent with a 40wt oil. It all has to do with RL's unique ester chemistry and it is the reason RL says you can drop a grade when switching to their 5W-XX and heavier oils.
To give an example, RL 5w30 is actually slightly heavier at operating temp's than M1 0W-40 and considerably heavier at lower temp's. So it's anything but too thin for you VW.
The following explains in more detail:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/2001169/





Thanks for explaning it!

 

[BobFout]

I am really on the fence about using RL 5w30 or 0w40 in my VW-Mobile... it would be a year-round oil from -20c to +35C (0F to 95F).

 

[AlienBug]

Originally Posted By: BobFout
I am really on the fence about using RL 5w30 or 0w40 in my VW-Mobile... it would be a year-round oil from -20c to +35C (0F to 95F).


The 5w30 lists VW 502, the 0w-40 lists VW 502 and VW 505, but I was under the impression that oils meeting one also met the other. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

 

[BobFout]

Originally Posted By: AlienBug
Originally Posted By: BobFout
I am really on the fence about using RL 5w30 or 0w40 in my VW-Mobile... it would be a year-round oil from -20c to +35C (0F to 95F).


The 5w30 lists VW 502, the 0w-40 lists VW 502 and VW 505, but I was under the impression that oils meeting one also met the other. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.


Most Euro oils just happen to meet both specs, the specs are different.

Both 5w30 and 0w40 meet the more stringent MB 229.5 though.

 

[A_Harman]

My choice would be the 5w30.

I'm a big fan of Redline oils generally, but I think there are 0w40's that are as good available at less cost. For instance, given a choice between RL 0w40 and M1 0w40, I would go with the M1.

But for a diesel, I would go with RL 5w40. No second thought about it.

 

[CATERHAM]

For those that are interested, the following is a UOA of RL 0W-40 and Motul 8100 5W-40 in a Saab Turbo:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/2001-saab-9-3se-redline-0w40-8000km-5000miles.111234/

Other than being a good UOA in a harsh turbo application I was most interested in the less than 10% viscosity loss for the 197 VI RL. Any blend with the shear stable RL 0w30 will provide a very stable heavy 0w30 to a light 0W-40 with unparalleled cold start performance.
RL's 5w30 while a good oil is an older formulation to RL's more modern 0W-XX oils which use naturally higher VI base oils in their 0w30 and 0W-40 formulations.

I too like M1 0W-40 and prefer it to RL 5w30. They have close operational viscosities but M1 has better cold start performance.
But I much prefer RL 0w30 to RL 5w30; they're both equally shear resistant despite the 0W-30's much higher 183 VI.
Although it is a lighter true 30wt oil. Thickening it up to whatever HTHS viscosity you want by blending in some RL 0W-40 is the way to go IMO.