Recall for Jeeps Announced by Chrysler
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That should make parking in San Fransisco a tad bit more interesting....
Originally Posted By: NHGUY
Electronics will always be a problem.And it only gets worse as things age.
Exactly.
There is a time and place for auto electronics and it is increasingly obvious that the manufacturers are not taking into account the complexity and age factors or more likely they want this so that it forces folks to buy new instead of trying to repair expensive systems.
Electronics will always be a problem.And it only gets worse as things age.
Exactly.
There is a time and place for auto electronics and it is increasingly obvious that the manufacturers are not taking into account the complexity and age factors or more likely they want this so that it forces folks to buy new instead of trying to repair expensive systems.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
There are plenty of older BMW and Benz's that have just as much, if not more electronic complexity to them than the new vehicles. Sometimes they can be a nightmare, but often they aren't.
I dare say the same argument could be made for Infiniti and Lexus as well.
I dare say the same argument could be made for Infiniti and Lexus as well.
Um ...
Shouldn't the parking brake be set anyway?
Shouldn't the parking brake be set anyway?
it appears that there's not enough profit in a bare-bones automobile. My first new car in 1966 had rubber floor mats, standard transmission, no power anything, no A/C. The wipers were on, high and low for speeds. The radio had a single speaker and mechanical push buttons. The carb was a single barrel with about 10 parts and could be rebuilt completely with a kit costing $12.00. The car took me to work and back and everywhere I wanted to co with a sticker price of $1,599.00. I got by just fine without a lot of extra stuff. Today I get all the extra stuff in the cheapest econo car on the dealer's lot whether I need/want them or not. If I buy an expensive car there's no chance that I could ever figure out what's going on under the hood. And the chance of me buying a used car with all that electronic stuff is zero. Funny how it works out that way.
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Um ...
Shouldn't the parking brake be set anyway?
Companies have starting making those electronic too!
Um ...
Shouldn't the parking brake be set anyway?
Companies have starting making those electronic too!
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
it appears that there's not enough profit in a bare-bones automobile. My first new car in 1966 had rubber floor mats, standard transmission, no power anything, no A/C. The wipers were on, high and low for speeds. The radio had a single speaker and mechanical push buttons. The carb was a single barrel with about 10 parts and could be rebuilt completely with a kit costing $12.00. The car took me to work and back and everywhere I wanted to co with a sticker price of $1,599.00. I got by just fine without a lot of extra stuff. Today I get all the extra stuff in the cheapest econo car on the dealer's lot whether I need/want them or not. If I buy an expensive car there's no chance that I could ever figure out what's going on under the hood. And the chance of me buying a used car with all that electronic stuff is zero. Funny how it works out that way.
Versa and Spark are probably the simplest vehicles on the market. And maybe a pickup or two.
Other than that, no one wants simple vehicles any more
it appears that there's not enough profit in a bare-bones automobile. My first new car in 1966 had rubber floor mats, standard transmission, no power anything, no A/C. The wipers were on, high and low for speeds. The radio had a single speaker and mechanical push buttons. The carb was a single barrel with about 10 parts and could be rebuilt completely with a kit costing $12.00. The car took me to work and back and everywhere I wanted to co with a sticker price of $1,599.00. I got by just fine without a lot of extra stuff. Today I get all the extra stuff in the cheapest econo car on the dealer's lot whether I need/want them or not. If I buy an expensive car there's no chance that I could ever figure out what's going on under the hood. And the chance of me buying a used car with all that electronic stuff is zero. Funny how it works out that way.
Versa and Spark are probably the simplest vehicles on the market. And maybe a pickup or two.
Other than that, no one wants simple vehicles any more
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Versa and Spark are probably the simplest vehicles on the market. And maybe a pickup or two.
Other than that, no one wants simple vehicles any more
There's a (very) few more than that if you look.
Plenty of us want simple vehicles.
I believe that vehicles have crossed over the line regarding amenities vs. cost/reliability.
I predict that the cost of maintaining the electronics will outweigh the conveniences that so many people seem to "need" nowadays: heated seats, power everything, backup cameras, crash avoidance sensors, computer controlled everything. You can only idiot proof the vehicles so much, but you still cannot "fix stupid"
The latest new car owners manual I looked at had more pages about the infotainment system than anything else (maintenance, etc.).
I hope time proves me wrong, but I have little remorse for someone whining about their heated seats not working.
Versa and Spark are probably the simplest vehicles on the market. And maybe a pickup or two.
Other than that, no one wants simple vehicles any more
There's a (very) few more than that if you look.
Plenty of us want simple vehicles.
I believe that vehicles have crossed over the line regarding amenities vs. cost/reliability.
I predict that the cost of maintaining the electronics will outweigh the conveniences that so many people seem to "need" nowadays: heated seats, power everything, backup cameras, crash avoidance sensors, computer controlled everything. You can only idiot proof the vehicles so much, but you still cannot "fix stupid"
The latest new car owners manual I looked at had more pages about the infotainment system than anything else (maintenance, etc.).
I hope time proves me wrong, but I have little remorse for someone whining about their heated seats not working.
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
it appears that there's not enough profit in a bare-bones automobile. My first new car in 1966 had rubber floor mats, standard transmission, no power anything, no A/C. The wipers were on, high and low for speeds. The radio had a single speaker and mechanical push buttons. The carb was a single barrel with about 10 parts and could be rebuilt completely with a kit costing $12.00. The car took me to work and back and everywhere I wanted to co with a sticker price of $1,599.00. I got by just fine without a lot of extra stuff. Today I get all the extra stuff in the cheapest econo car on the dealer's lot whether I need/want them or not. If I buy an expensive car there's no chance that I could ever figure out what's going on under the hood. And the chance of me buying a used car with all that electronic stuff is zero. Funny how it works out that way.
Versa and Spark are probably the simplest vehicles on the market. And maybe a pickup or two.
Other than that, no one wants simple vehicles any more
I think to a large degree, the market has evolved to the point where most people who buy new cars are no longer much concerned about the long term serviceability of all that technology. They have a service contract, and by the time the car starts getting bills from a mechanic they'll sell it off. It will be someone else's problem.
If the auto industry wanted to appeal to people who do their own car work, I do think there would be a market for simplicity. But regulations have made it impractical to design cars that way. Manufacturers have to design cars for modern regulations and maximum possible CAFE ratings. This leads them to favor complexity, even if it results in a car that's more difficult and expensive to buy/repair/maintain over it's life.
Essentially, I believe cars today are designed for the government, and then it's up to marketing to sell them to the public. Look at their massive achievement in reprogramming the public to buy SUVs instead of full size station wagons. That was all about CAFE - they didn't want their large, lower mileage family vehicles categorized as "cars" anymore.
I don't think much of what's sold today is what I'd truly call an economy car. They're more like 4cyl hotrods that get good mileage but are otherwise far too complicated, even expensive. Mileage isn't everything - in my opinion an economy car should be simple, durable, use cheap parts, and be easy to work on.
Simple example, an economy car should use an iron engine. Aluminum reduces durability and increases the cost - not sensible for an economy vehicle. But that's one of the many extravagances in what they sell today.
There were simple economy cars from 20-30 years ago whose mileage was on par with today's models, but far simpler in design. They are the cars everybody liked to make fun of but they did their job as daily drivers and did it cheaply.
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
it appears that there's not enough profit in a bare-bones automobile. My first new car in 1966 had rubber floor mats, standard transmission, no power anything, no A/C. The wipers were on, high and low for speeds. The radio had a single speaker and mechanical push buttons. The carb was a single barrel with about 10 parts and could be rebuilt completely with a kit costing $12.00. The car took me to work and back and everywhere I wanted to co with a sticker price of $1,599.00. I got by just fine without a lot of extra stuff. Today I get all the extra stuff in the cheapest econo car on the dealer's lot whether I need/want them or not. If I buy an expensive car there's no chance that I could ever figure out what's going on under the hood. And the chance of me buying a used car with all that electronic stuff is zero. Funny how it works out that way.
Versa and Spark are probably the simplest vehicles on the market. And maybe a pickup or two.
Other than that, no one wants simple vehicles any more
I think to a large degree, the market has evolved to the point where most people who buy new cars are no longer much concerned about the long term serviceability of all that technology. They have a service contract, and by the time the car starts getting bills from a mechanic they'll sell it off. It will be someone else's problem.
If the auto industry wanted to appeal to people who do their own car work, I do think there would be a market for simplicity. But regulations have made it impractical to design cars that way. Manufacturers have to design cars for modern regulations and maximum possible CAFE ratings. This leads them to favor complexity, even if it results in a car that's more difficult and expensive to buy/repair/maintain over it's life.
Essentially, I believe cars today are designed for the government, and then it's up to marketing to sell them to the public. Look at their massive achievement in reprogramming the public to buy SUVs instead of full size station wagons. That was all about CAFE - they didn't want their large, lower mileage family vehicles categorized as "cars" anymore.
I don't think much of what's sold today is what I'd truly call an economy car. They're more like 4cyl hotrods that get good mileage but are otherwise far too complicated, even expensive. Mileage isn't everything - in my opinion an economy car should be simple, durable, use cheap parts, and be easy to work on.
Simple example, an economy car should use an iron engine. Aluminum reduces durability and increases the cost - not sensible for an economy vehicle. But that's one of the many extravagances in what they sell today.
There were simple economy cars from 20-30 years ago whose mileage was on par with today's models, but far simpler in design. They are the cars everybody liked to make fun of but they did their job as daily drivers and did it cheaply.
There's no profit in simple cars and marketing is too strong to let people think they know what they want. You've got to have the latest and greatest whatever....
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
it appears that there's not enough profit in a bare-bones automobile. My first new car in 1966 had rubber floor mats, standard transmission, no power anything, no A/C. The wipers were on, high and low for speeds. The radio had a single speaker and mechanical push buttons. The carb was a single barrel with about 10 parts and could be rebuilt completely with a kit costing $12.00. The car took me to work and back and everywhere I wanted to co with a sticker price of $1,599.00. I got by just fine without a lot of extra stuff. Today I get all the extra stuff in the cheapest econo car on the dealer's lot whether I need/want them or not. If I buy an expensive car there's no chance that I could ever figure out what's going on under the hood. And the chance of me buying a used car with all that electronic stuff is zero. Funny how it works out that way.
That's pretty interesting. In todays dollars that is $11,490 which doesn't seem to far off the most bare bones small car today.
it appears that there's not enough profit in a bare-bones automobile. My first new car in 1966 had rubber floor mats, standard transmission, no power anything, no A/C. The wipers were on, high and low for speeds. The radio had a single speaker and mechanical push buttons. The carb was a single barrel with about 10 parts and could be rebuilt completely with a kit costing $12.00. The car took me to work and back and everywhere I wanted to co with a sticker price of $1,599.00. I got by just fine without a lot of extra stuff. Today I get all the extra stuff in the cheapest econo car on the dealer's lot whether I need/want them or not. If I buy an expensive car there's no chance that I could ever figure out what's going on under the hood. And the chance of me buying a used car with all that electronic stuff is zero. Funny how it works out that way.
That's pretty interesting. In todays dollars that is $11,490 which doesn't seem to far off the most bare bones small car today.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
There are plenty of older BMW and Benz's that have just as much, if not more electronic complexity to them than the new vehicles. Sometimes they can be a nightmare, but often they aren't.
I dare say the same argument could be made for Infiniti and Lexus as well.
This argument applies to almost any car being made today. Carmakers push suppliers for cheaper pricing because consumers do the same to them. This is a contributing factor to why cars are not as solid and/or reliable these days for many owners.
The majority behave just fine for a 'normal' lifetime, but buying a well used version can be quite problematic as many so called "mechanics" simply cannot fix them!
There are plenty of older BMW and Benz's that have just as much, if not more electronic complexity to them than the new vehicles. Sometimes they can be a nightmare, but often they aren't.
I dare say the same argument could be made for Infiniti and Lexus as well.
This argument applies to almost any car being made today. Carmakers push suppliers for cheaper pricing because consumers do the same to them. This is a contributing factor to why cars are not as solid and/or reliable these days for many owners.
The majority behave just fine for a 'normal' lifetime, but buying a well used version can be quite problematic as many so called "mechanics" simply cannot fix them!
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
There are plenty of older BMW and Benz's that have just as much, if not more electronic complexity to them than the new vehicles. Sometimes they can be a nightmare, but often they aren't.
I dare say the same argument could be made for Infiniti and Lexus as well.
This argument applies to almost any car being made today. Carmakers push suppliers for cheaper pricing because consumers do the same to them. This is a contributing factor to why cars are not as solid and/or reliable these days for many owners.
The majority behave just fine for a 'normal' lifetime, but buying a well used version can be quite problematic as many so called "mechanics" simply cannot fix them!
Good point Steve
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
There are plenty of older BMW and Benz's that have just as much, if not more electronic complexity to them than the new vehicles. Sometimes they can be a nightmare, but often they aren't.
I dare say the same argument could be made for Infiniti and Lexus as well.
This argument applies to almost any car being made today. Carmakers push suppliers for cheaper pricing because consumers do the same to them. This is a contributing factor to why cars are not as solid and/or reliable these days for many owners.
The majority behave just fine for a 'normal' lifetime, but buying a well used version can be quite problematic as many so called "mechanics" simply cannot fix them!
Good point Steve
I'll take my electronics, thanks. On average much less to go wrong with electronics and it's much more reliable. Chrapsler cheaped out in the programming and or testing, plain and simple (and so did Turdota with the acceleration a few years ago).
Without electronics,
We would have carbs that need rebuilt every so often
Points and condensers
No VVT, fuel injection, timing adjustment, and much lower efficiency and horsepower per liter
Poor emissions
Poor cold weather drivability
More maintenance.
On the whole electronics are better than mechanical systems. You couldn't drive a 60s car 100k with nothing more than gas and oil and fluid changes like you can with just about any car today.
Without electronics,
We would have carbs that need rebuilt every so often
Points and condensers
No VVT, fuel injection, timing adjustment, and much lower efficiency and horsepower per liter
Poor emissions
Poor cold weather drivability
More maintenance.
On the whole electronics are better than mechanical systems. You couldn't drive a 60s car 100k with nothing more than gas and oil and fluid changes like you can with just about any car today.
Without electronics, you can keep a car running forever. The only thing that will kill it is accidents and rust. It will need more maintenance but it won't become impossible to fix. With excessively complicated electronics, long term maintenance becomes impractical, as almost nobody can keep up with all the long term issues they develop.
Personally I'm fond of the middle ground - early EFI cars. They have the advantages of computer controlled fuel metering and spark advance, but they keep it simple. They're not too hard to diagnose and work on.
On the early EFI cars there's around 5 to 10 sensors and they typically just signal using some variable resistance or a voltage level. Easy to test. Their interaction in the ECM control algorithm is easy to make sense of, and well documented. The small size of their programming has lent itself to reverse engineering of everything they do.
When you get into newer designs, the electronic circuits get dramatically more complicated for relatively little practical purpose. They're very difficult to diagnose, or even to understand what they're supposed to do. You end up buying parts on a guess hoping to get lucky. Half of them require vehicle disassembly to reach.
This problem is multiplied by the fact that new aftermarket electronics are unreliable junk - even if branded by an "OEM" label like AC Delco from what I've seen. 1 to 2 year life spans are typical for aftermarket parts.
The unreliability of replacement parts can get out of hand for a more complicated car, where there are many more such parts in the car, they're more expensive, and their diagnosis is exponentially more tricky.
On that point - if you replace something on a guess and don't know it's actually faulty, save the original! It's better made!
The auto transmission on older cars won't go into neutral unless you mechanically select it. Reliability is not a problem with that mechanism, it's not something that breaks. This is an example of something that doesn't need to be complicated - electronics are less reliable for this function.
Originally Posted By: 'itguy08'
On the whole electronics are better than mechanical systems. You couldn't drive a 60s car 100k with nothing more than gas and oil and fluid changes like you can with just about any car today.
True, though I think the difference is a bit exaggerated by some factors:
1) Roads in the 60s were not the same as today. Surface streets were usually used. People also generally didn't do long distance driving nearly as often as today. Bottom line, they weren't getting many highway miles.
2) Oil quality was poor compared to today.
3) Mechanical precision and quality control may have been inferior. Improvement in this area is not dependent on the addition of electronics.
But also
4) Mechanical carburetion can be sloppy with the fuel metering, which is unhealthy for the engine. This falls under the point you made. A relatively simple EFI system can solve this.
Personally I'm fond of the middle ground - early EFI cars. They have the advantages of computer controlled fuel metering and spark advance, but they keep it simple. They're not too hard to diagnose and work on.
On the early EFI cars there's around 5 to 10 sensors and they typically just signal using some variable resistance or a voltage level. Easy to test. Their interaction in the ECM control algorithm is easy to make sense of, and well documented. The small size of their programming has lent itself to reverse engineering of everything they do.
When you get into newer designs, the electronic circuits get dramatically more complicated for relatively little practical purpose. They're very difficult to diagnose, or even to understand what they're supposed to do. You end up buying parts on a guess hoping to get lucky. Half of them require vehicle disassembly to reach.
This problem is multiplied by the fact that new aftermarket electronics are unreliable junk - even if branded by an "OEM" label like AC Delco from what I've seen. 1 to 2 year life spans are typical for aftermarket parts.
The unreliability of replacement parts can get out of hand for a more complicated car, where there are many more such parts in the car, they're more expensive, and their diagnosis is exponentially more tricky.
On that point - if you replace something on a guess and don't know it's actually faulty, save the original! It's better made!
The auto transmission on older cars won't go into neutral unless you mechanically select it. Reliability is not a problem with that mechanism, it's not something that breaks. This is an example of something that doesn't need to be complicated - electronics are less reliable for this function.
Originally Posted By: 'itguy08'
On the whole electronics are better than mechanical systems. You couldn't drive a 60s car 100k with nothing more than gas and oil and fluid changes like you can with just about any car today.
True, though I think the difference is a bit exaggerated by some factors:
1) Roads in the 60s were not the same as today. Surface streets were usually used. People also generally didn't do long distance driving nearly as often as today. Bottom line, they weren't getting many highway miles.
2) Oil quality was poor compared to today.
3) Mechanical precision and quality control may have been inferior. Improvement in this area is not dependent on the addition of electronics.
But also
4) Mechanical carburetion can be sloppy with the fuel metering, which is unhealthy for the engine. This falls under the point you made. A relatively simple EFI system can solve this.
I disagree. What we are lacking is good troubleshooting skills. Last car I had, an Infiniti G35 I lucked into a website that had a copy of the service manual from Nissan for the car. Flowcharts for everything electronic. Do this, probe that, and you will determine what is wrong. Problem is most techs want to throw parts at in hopes of fixing it and move on. I blame the flat rate system for that as they are not paid solely on quality or callbacks but rather what the book says.
As far as qualty - I learned back in the Ford TFI days to suck it up and go to the dealer for most things other than basic sensors. Even something simple as a coolant temp sensor or parking brake cable did not fit on my wife's Escape. Yet the dealer parts fit 100% of the time. It's worth it for the lack of frustration of poorly fitting parts.
I think we all also have our rose colored glasses on. There were plenty of problems with mechanical systems. You had to constantly adjust points, get the carb "just right", and warm your car up. Now, no matter the weather you turn the key and go.
I've found that the electronics on our cars is fine, even after 6-10 years. And most of the time the cars are not parked in the garage.
Roads today are just as bad due to lack of repair.
I'm grateful for modern electronics. Things like Fuel Injection (sucked as a mechanical system), turbos (work better with EFI), and the creature comforts make it worth it for me and even society in general. I remember the smell when I started up my 86 Mustang with a carb. Some days you could get high. Start up a new car and you can barely smell it (even after 10 years and 130k).
As far as qualty - I learned back in the Ford TFI days to suck it up and go to the dealer for most things other than basic sensors. Even something simple as a coolant temp sensor or parking brake cable did not fit on my wife's Escape. Yet the dealer parts fit 100% of the time. It's worth it for the lack of frustration of poorly fitting parts.
I think we all also have our rose colored glasses on. There were plenty of problems with mechanical systems. You had to constantly adjust points, get the carb "just right", and warm your car up. Now, no matter the weather you turn the key and go.
I've found that the electronics on our cars is fine, even after 6-10 years. And most of the time the cars are not parked in the garage.
Roads today are just as bad due to lack of repair.
I'm grateful for modern electronics. Things like Fuel Injection (sucked as a mechanical system), turbos (work better with EFI), and the creature comforts make it worth it for me and even society in general. I remember the smell when I started up my 86 Mustang with a carb. Some days you could get high. Start up a new car and you can barely smell it (even after 10 years and 130k).
Are these vehicles really electronically-shifted? It was my understanding that they had mechanical cables between the shifter and the transmission. I would think that would make an "electronic shift" into neutral nearly impossible, but I guess not.
I'm generally positive on electronics, but that's because of the era of car on which I cut my teeth. If the early EFI cars are the best of both worlds, the late computer-controlled carbureted cars have to be the worst! My '84 Cutlass had about 27 miles of brittle rubber vacuum line under the hood. It had EGR pipes that you'd have to drill the carbon from. It had constant vacuum leaks here and there. It had two vacuum-controlled choke pull-offs. It was difficult to work on because of all the "tacked on" emissions stuff.
I do agree that early EFI cars were generally pretty easy to work on, and fairly reliable for the most part. I still do prefer modern/current systems.
Tuning that Q-jet with different secondary metering rods was fun, though!
I'm generally positive on electronics, but that's because of the era of car on which I cut my teeth. If the early EFI cars are the best of both worlds, the late computer-controlled carbureted cars have to be the worst! My '84 Cutlass had about 27 miles of brittle rubber vacuum line under the hood. It had EGR pipes that you'd have to drill the carbon from. It had constant vacuum leaks here and there. It had two vacuum-controlled choke pull-offs. It was difficult to work on because of all the "tacked on" emissions stuff.
I do agree that early EFI cars were generally pretty easy to work on, and fairly reliable for the most part. I still do prefer modern/current systems.
Tuning that Q-jet with different secondary metering rods was fun, though!
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