I need an expert! I have a receipt for oil change in a Honda Civic 5-spd manual transmission but it says they put VTM-4 in it, even says "Differential Fluid". I also have a very noisy transmission, which is a completely new development. Net search tells me the EP lube tricresyl phosphate is in this lube, and wikipedia says ""It is extremely important to note that EP additives are corrosive to yellow metals such as copper or brass in bushings or synchronizers." While I think I have the lube service dead to rights, I expect trouble gettign a new transmission out of them. Where can I find an expert to verify what I've learned?
quick-change put differential fluid in transmissio
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JHZR2
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Start with literature - real peer reviewed, citeable literature from valid sources.
How long was it in there? Isnt it your responsibility to verify that the workscope and what was performed is correct?
How long was it in there? Isnt it your responsibility to verify that the workscope and what was performed is correct?
Yikes, drain that fluid out ASAP !!!!!!
Its OK to use regular 10w30 motor oil as a substitute for Honda MTF..... NOT gear oil or diff fluid. What year is your Civic ?
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Does that make the error mine?
No.
I would do 2 drain/refills with 10w30 to get rid of all that fluid out of your trans, then refill with MTF.
Its OK to use regular 10w30 motor oil as a substitute for Honda MTF..... NOT gear oil or diff fluid. What year is your Civic ?
Quote:
Does that make the error mine?
No.
I would do 2 drain/refills with 10w30 to get rid of all that fluid out of your trans, then refill with MTF.
Absolutely not your responsibility.
2001. 76,000 miles on the car. Ten years dealing with this shop. That oil is not going anywhere, including out, until I get an agreement to replace. Because although I have the receipt I am not confident they will see it my way. But with the gear noise (identified by the mechanic I've used for clutch and transmission work on my Mitsubishi)I don't think this trans. will be saved.
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Originally Posted By: Civic1
Does that make the error mine?
Error is definitelt NOT yours. You should never have to go behind anyone to check their work,that`s what you paid them for. I`d call first and tell them what`s up,then head over there and make them re-do the fluid change w/oem spec Honda mtf at no charge whatsoever.
Does that make the error mine?
Error is definitelt NOT yours. You should never have to go behind anyone to check their work,that`s what you paid them for. I`d call first and tell them what`s up,then head over there and make them re-do the fluid change w/oem spec Honda mtf at no charge whatsoever.
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Originally Posted By: Civic1
I don't think this trans. will be saved.
Hopefully your trans will be fine. I`d guess it would take a long time for any damage to be done. BUT,if any damage was done (maybe you should get an affidavit from your mechanic),the quick lube shop by law owes you a brand new trans.
I don't think this trans. will be saved.
Hopefully your trans will be fine. I`d guess it would take a long time for any damage to be done. BUT,if any damage was done (maybe you should get an affidavit from your mechanic),the quick lube shop by law owes you a brand new trans.
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Make copies of the receipt. Only give them a copy and hold on to the original
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Originally Posted By: Civic1
I don't think this trans. will be saved.
Hopefully your trans will be fine. I`d guess it would take a long time for any damage to be done. BUT,if any damage was done (maybe you should get an affidavit from your mechanic),the quick lube shop by law owes you a brand new trans.
What law dictates a new trans as the terms???? Perhaps being made whole, which would likely be a performance of repair of the damaged parts (pull apart the trans and replace anything that looks pitted), or replace with a used unit with the same or slightly less miles (and no maintenance history).
If he can get a new trans, great. I highly doubt there is any law or regulation that specifies the replacement part as new.
As far as not the OP's fault for checking the slip, Im sorry, but I'd never pay money without thoroughly reviewing what was done and making sure it was to my standards before letting out my funds. If the OP had checked it then and there, this likely wouldn't be an issue. Are we paying the shop for expertise and to d the right workscope for the job, including the correct fluids? Yes. However, mistakes DO happen, and this one may have been much more benign if the car hadnt been used between the fluid swap and now.
IMO a good faith attempt should be made to flush the trans with an acceptable fluid a few times and then put in the right, desired fluid. This should be done at the shop's cost. However, it should also be well documented and Id in no way agree that this accounts fr full compensation. Its just that the kinetics of corrosion, etc. may not be so fast to the point where anything really happened... The noise may just be a viscosity thing...
I would want to keep the fluid that was put in the AT (incorrect stuff), by collecting it in a clean pan and putting it into a clear jar to observe. I might do that at another shop (so it isnt just the OP's word), and send the bill to the original shop. Part of the compensation could then be for them to repay that effort and replace the correct fluid a few times. If it didnt work, then further action could be taken.
But on an older car with an lder trans, it will be difficult to state that the trans wasnt already noisy and in need of replacement... As the stigma will be that the OP is trying to get a new trans for free.
Originally Posted By: Civic1
I don't think this trans. will be saved.
Hopefully your trans will be fine. I`d guess it would take a long time for any damage to be done. BUT,if any damage was done (maybe you should get an affidavit from your mechanic),the quick lube shop by law owes you a brand new trans.
What law dictates a new trans as the terms???? Perhaps being made whole, which would likely be a performance of repair of the damaged parts (pull apart the trans and replace anything that looks pitted), or replace with a used unit with the same or slightly less miles (and no maintenance history).
If he can get a new trans, great. I highly doubt there is any law or regulation that specifies the replacement part as new.
As far as not the OP's fault for checking the slip, Im sorry, but I'd never pay money without thoroughly reviewing what was done and making sure it was to my standards before letting out my funds. If the OP had checked it then and there, this likely wouldn't be an issue. Are we paying the shop for expertise and to d the right workscope for the job, including the correct fluids? Yes. However, mistakes DO happen, and this one may have been much more benign if the car hadnt been used between the fluid swap and now.
IMO a good faith attempt should be made to flush the trans with an acceptable fluid a few times and then put in the right, desired fluid. This should be done at the shop's cost. However, it should also be well documented and Id in no way agree that this accounts fr full compensation. Its just that the kinetics of corrosion, etc. may not be so fast to the point where anything really happened... The noise may just be a viscosity thing...
I would want to keep the fluid that was put in the AT (incorrect stuff), by collecting it in a clean pan and putting it into a clear jar to observe. I might do that at another shop (so it isnt just the OP's word), and send the bill to the original shop. Part of the compensation could then be for them to repay that effort and replace the correct fluid a few times. If it didnt work, then further action could be taken.
But on an older car with an lder trans, it will be difficult to state that the trans wasnt already noisy and in need of replacement... As the stigma will be that the OP is trying to get a new trans for free.
I would drain the VTM-4 out and catch a sample of it just in case you have to send it out for a UOA to prove they added the wrong fluid. Do two quick drain/refils as I mentioned before. Hopefully no damage has been done.
The last thing you want to have to fight them in court over a rebuilt trans..... mean while you are out of a car.
You can drain the fluid without having to get the Civic on ramps or lift and refill from above by removing the reverse gear sensor. Get that fluid out ASAP !!!
The last thing you want to have to fight them in court over a rebuilt trans..... mean while you are out of a car.
You can drain the fluid without having to get the Civic on ramps or lift and refill from above by removing the reverse gear sensor. Get that fluid out ASAP !!!
I appreciate the advice on how to fix it, I was just told today that the differential fluid on the receipt didn't indicate what they actually put in it. I can park it if need be and won't let them off even if I have to go to court, as they will end up paying for all of it anyway. As far as what JHZR2 wouldn't do, fortunately that's only an opinion - what I really was asking for was if anyone here can suggest an expert, because I believe I need one to back up what I've learned. It would be more improper to let the shop get away with it. Can't let that happen.
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Originally Posted By: JHZR2
As far as not the OP's fault for checking the slip, Im sorry, but I'd never pay money without thoroughly reviewing what was done and making sure it was to my standards before letting out my funds.
Nope,it`s not the op`s fault whatsoever. The op is not the shop owner,nor is he the tech`s supervisor. When we pay for services rendered,it`s not our responsibility to check their work. If the shop is doing work that they`re not qualified/trained to do,then said shop needs to shut down their business and get into a line of work that they`re qualified for. The op payed for services,and if said services were not performed correctly,op is entitled to full replacement if damages were sustained due to the shop`s negligence.
As far as not the OP's fault for checking the slip, Im sorry, but I'd never pay money without thoroughly reviewing what was done and making sure it was to my standards before letting out my funds.
Nope,it`s not the op`s fault whatsoever. The op is not the shop owner,nor is he the tech`s supervisor. When we pay for services rendered,it`s not our responsibility to check their work. If the shop is doing work that they`re not qualified/trained to do,then said shop needs to shut down their business and get into a line of work that they`re qualified for. The op payed for services,and if said services were not performed correctly,op is entitled to full replacement if damages were sustained due to the shop`s negligence.
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Kestas
Staff member
Let's assume that the present fluid indeed attacks yellow metals. How would this result in a noisy transmission?
Excellent question, I know enough about transmissions to know not to try and repair one myself. I do know the shifter moves things in a sliding direction, there will be bronze bushings there. I also know there are bronze parts in the synchros. I would expect that to be the problem area, as the job of the synchros is to bring the speed of the gears that must mesh to the same speed. if they aren't able to do their job then it seems to me the gear lash might be compromised. However I did not notice any difficulty shifting. Just that all gears have a sound like a playing card held against the spokes of a spinning bicycle wheel while the car is moving and the clutch is engaged (pedal released). If any of the gear-bearing shafts are bronze bused, misalignment could be the problem. Anyone who has any understanding of what's going on there that could be affected by, basically, phosphoric acid content eating yellow metal, please input. I want to know all I can.
I don't see how the trans could be ruined by this.
The sulfur is buffered, and no time , heat, or moisture is on the system anyway.
It is not the right or best fluid, but so what?
The synchros are the 'yellow' metal, and don't make gear noise.
The sulfur is buffered, and no time , heat, or moisture is on the system anyway.
It is not the right or best fluid, but so what?
The synchros are the 'yellow' metal, and don't make gear noise.
There is a certified master Honda/Acura tech on BITOG, maybe he can do a better job answering the OP question(s).
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However I did not notice any difficulty shifting. Just that all gears have a sound like a playing card held against the spokes of a spinning bicycle wheel while the car is moving and the clutch is engaged (pedal released).
To me that sounds like a bad Input Shaft Bearing. I could be wrong.
Does your trans make a whirring sound at idle ?
Quote:
However I did not notice any difficulty shifting. Just that all gears have a sound like a playing card held against the spokes of a spinning bicycle wheel while the car is moving and the clutch is engaged (pedal released).
To me that sounds like a bad Input Shaft Bearing. I could be wrong.
Does your trans make a whirring sound at idle ?
LT4 Vette, I have to recant, I went back out to the Civic and double checked and the noise is in fact there with the trans in neutral and the pedal up, so that the input shaft would be running. However it is more faint. I had to travel a distance yesterday (130 miles) and had never heard the noise before at all, and as I went it got progressively louder. At first I could only hear it in low and second gears and later in the day I could hear it in fifth at highway speed. I drove it to see a mechanic Saturday evening and the noise was much louder than it presently is. He said it was gear noise for sure but didn't comment on what might need to be replaced. I had just had the oil changed and that seemed weird, so I finally looked at the receipt and discovered the wrong stuff was in there. Your further comments would be appreciated, anyone else?
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