Pros/Cons of using a HDEO vs a Full Saps PMCO 40wt

[twX]

Is there some documentation you have about the cam being the area of highest shear? The rotating speeds are fairly slow since each individual lobe is effectively half engine speed; all of the other white papers that have been posted show that the piston skirt/ring pack are magnitudes higher since they are traveling upwards of of 4000+ fpm in some cases.

Here's a study from 2017 that shows shear rates in different parts of an engine, Shear rates in engines and implications for lubricant design.

Here's a table showing shear rates at the cam lobe for a bucket style tappet. I haven't seen any data for roller tappets.

Shear rates at the pistons were high as well in this study, but not quite as high as at the cams. Shear rates in the journal bearings were in the range of 10^6, similar to shear rates for the HTHS measurement.

 

[MSCH]

Mopar specs their OEM cert MS-12991 in 5W-40. They do not spec CK-4. There's been ongoing issues with dealerships failing to acknowledge that, putting Rotella in the engines, and getting bearing failures as a result.

Hey, let us be a little more specific... what year and engine family are we talking about? ...

my truck( 2016) says use CJ4 even though the CK4 rating had already came out... and it seems it took a couple years before Mopar got up to date...Mopar leaves a bit to be desired in their OM's... for instance my trucks manual still says to lubricate the tie rod ends, but it doesn't have any grease fitting.. LOL. I never bothered with the Mopar Certs which I think are proprietary nonsense..
so I totally ignored them, knowing Cummins builds the engine and not Mopar and I just use an oil that meets CK4 and carries the CES 20086 cert... which is pretty much all of them... lately on the fifth generation Cummins with the hydraulic lash adjuster they are speccing a 10w30 or a 5w 40... prior to that it was 15w40... but when I look in my Cummins operating and inspection manual, you'd say to yourself 15w40 seems to be the recommended preferred viscosity, and that other viscosities are also used..

 

[MSCH]

Mopar specs their OEM cert MS-12991 in 5W-40. They do not spec CK-4. There's been ongoing issues with dealerships failing to acknowledge that, putting Rotella in the engines, and getting bearing failures as a result.

from the 2021 OM... see page 482. chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/https://cdn.dealereprocess.org/cdn/servicemanuals/ram/2021-2500.pdfquote

In ambient temperatures above 0°F (-18°C), we recommend you use
10W-30 engine oil such as Mopar®, Shell Rotella and Shell Rimula that
meets the manufacturer Material Standard MS-10902 and the API CK-4
engine oil category is required. Products meeting Cummins® CES
20081 may also be used. The identification of these engine oils is
typically located on the back of the oil container.
In ambient temperatures below 0°F (-18°C), we recommend you use
5W-40 synthetic engine oil such as Mopar®, Shell Rotella and Shell
Rimula that meets the manufacturer Material Standard MS-10902 and
the API CK-4 engine oil category is required

 

[MSCH]

Mopar specs their OEM cert MS-12991 in 5W-40. They do not spec CK-4. There's been ongoing issues with dealerships failing to acknowledge that, putting Rotella in the engines, and getting bearing failures as a result.

2017 Owners Manual , like I said CK4 was already on the market and was a Cummins recommendation but Ram as always is a day late and a dollar short... its also worth saying CK4 is totally backwards compatible with the older stuff... quote

Engine Oil Viscosity (SAE Grade)
In ambient temperatures above 0°F (-18°C), we recommend
you use SAE 15W-40 engine oil such as Mopar, Shell
Rotella and Shell Rimula that meets FCA Material Standard
MS-10902 and the API CJ-4 engine oil category is required.
Products meeting Cummins CES 20081 may also be used.
The identification of these engine oils is typically located
on the back of the oil container.
In ambient temperatures below 0°F (-18°C), we recommend
you use SAE 5W-40 synthetic engine oil such as Mopar,
Shell Rotella and Shell Rimula that meets FCA Material
Standard MS-10902 and the API CJ-4 engine oil category is
required.
CAUTION!
Failure to use SAE 5W-40 synthetic engine oil in
ambient temperatures below 0°F (-18°C) could result in
severe engine damage.
186 MAINTAINING YOUR VEHICLE

 

[MSCH]

finally the real reason Ram Cummins with hydraulic valve adjusters spec 5w40 or 10w30, which has little to do with bearing failures. chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2020/MC-10178698-9999.pdf

Quote:
CAUTION! 15W-40 grade oil CAN NOT be used in any 2019 model year or newer 6.7L
equipped vehicles due to the new designed valve train of this engine. If this oil is
used, it will cause deposits to form in the Hydraulic Valve Lash Adjusters leading
to undesirable noise, and/or engine damage.
For any additional information regarding oil usage on these vehicles, please be sure to refer to the
owner’s manual.
POLICY:
Information Only
09-011-20 -2-

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

finally the real reason Ram Cummins with hydraulic valve adjusters spec 5w40 or 10w30, which has little to do with bearing failures. chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2020/MC-10178698-9999.pdf

Quote:
CAUTION! 15W-40 grade oil CAN NOT be used in any 2019 model year or newer 6.7L
equipped vehicles due to the new designed valve train of this engine. If this oil is
used, it will cause deposits to form in the Hydraulic Valve Lash Adjusters leading
to undesirable noise, and/or engine damage.
For any additional information regarding oil usage on these vehicles, please be sure to refer to the
owner’s manual.
POLICY:
Information Only
09-011-20 -2-

Not directed at you but the Mopar note: what universe are they living in? What deposits form, and now magically they form from ALL 15w40s? Psh. Other than paper receipts, there is no way to tell a used & oxidized 5w40 or 10w30 from a fairly new 15w40 if a failure occurred.

I’d love to hear the “why’s” of their reasoning, because on the face of it, it makes little to no sense. Correlation does not indicate causation, isn’t that the phrase?

 

[MSCH]

Not directed at you but the Mopar note: what universe are they living in? What deposits form, and now magically they form from ALL 15w40s? Psh. Other than paper receipts, there is no way to tell a used & oxidized 5w40 or 10w30 from a fairly new 15w40 if a failure occurred.

I’d love to hear the “why’s” of their reasoning, because on the face of it, it makes little to no sense. Correlation does not indicate causation, isn’t that the phrase?

Subie, I thought the same thing.... I betya they had cold start lifter noise issues, and I betya it was in a cold climate. because for the life of me I can't see how a 5w40 or a 15w40 would perform much differently in a hot engine... but I don't know the background,of Mopars TSB, I just do know Mopar issued a service bulletin. .

 

[OVERKILL]

This says otherwise...

View attachment 182535


Also... most all generic CK-4 HDMOs are 10-12% Noack. That tells you all you need to know about the quality of the base oil. (or lack thereof)

If it was so good, you wouldn't have diesel manufacturers pleading with API for a supplement to CK-4. Cummins wouldn't be ditching the spec completely. Mopar wouldn't have gone through the trouble of creating their own spec (similar to A3/B4) to stop the bearing and crank failures on CK-4 oils in their 3rd gen Ecodiesels.

There's also Ford coming up with their own approved oil list.

 

[MSCH]

are yall still chatting about diesel engine oils in gasoline engine use.? or just in general.?

 

[OVERKILL]

are yall still chatting about diesel engine oils in gasoline engine use.? or just in general.?

I think just in general, particularly the lower cost HDEO's.

 

[MSCH]

I think just in general, particularly the lower cost HDEO's.

all I use in my Cummins diesel. low cost CK4 15w40. .
Delvac 1300 is 14 bucks a gallon before rebate.
no one is ever going to convince me anyone needs to use an expensive oil in these engines
not based on my work experience where Delvac would have been an upgrade.

 

[OVERKILL]

all I use in my Cummins diesel. low cost CK4 15w40. .
Delvac 1300 is 14 bucks a gallon before rebate.
no one is ever going to convince me anyone needs to use an expensive oil in these engines
not based on my work experience where Delvac would have been an upgrade.

And, if it's appropriate for your application, that's totally fine.

The issue comes about when folks are like "Bruh, Brotella has 1,200PPM of ZINC, that means I should use it in my *insert heavily modified engine*". Not appreciating the facts such as:
- It's the phosphorous, not the zinc, that's important
- There are multiple types of ZDDP, you can't just go by the concentration figure
- The amount of ZDDP doesn't tell you anything about the rest of the formula, such as the quality and viscosity of the base oil blend and other additives.

This is how you end up with bearings like those posted by @RDY4WAR

I use Delvac 1 5W-40 in the our boat, so I'm not somebody who is adverse to HDEO's, but I also appreciate that developments such as Ford having to come up with WSS-M2C171-F1 don't occur in a vacuum, clearly, a deficiency in the CK-4 standard was identified (and there are tons of oils we recognize on this list, so the requirements aren't that lofty, including Rotella):
dieseloilsWSSM2C171F1.pdf (fcsdchemicalsandlubricants.com)

I'm not sure what to make of the "15W-40 can cause damage, use 10W-30" thing from Cummins, as that just seems totally off-base.

 

[MSCH]

And, if it's appropriate for your application, that's totally fine.

The issue comes about when folks are like "Bruh, Brotella has 1,200PPM of ZINC, that means I should use it in my *insert heavily modified engine*". Not appreciating the facts such as:
- It's the phosphorous, not the zinc, that's important
- There are multiple types of ZDDP, you can't just go by the concentration figure
- The amount of ZDDP doesn't tell you anything about the rest of the formula, such as the quality and viscosity of the base oil blend and other additives.

This is how you end up with bearings like those posted by @RDY4WAR

I use Delvac 1 5W-40 in the our boat, so I'm not somebody who is adverse to HDEO's, but I also appreciate that developments such as Ford having to come up with WSS-M2C171-F1 don't occur in a vacuum, clearly, a deficiency in the CK-4 standard was identified (and there are tons of oils we recognize on this list, so the requirements aren't that lofty, including Rotella):
dieseloilsWSSM2C171F1.pdf (fcsdchemicalsandlubricants.com)

I'm not sure what to make of the "15W-40 can cause damage, use 10W-30" thing from Cummins, as that just seems totally off-base.

I agree, since there are oils available for gasoline engines, in proper viscosities I don't understand this attempt at using something else based on chemical analysis..

IMHO anything Mopar has to say about Cummins is borderline suspect.. they buy the engine from Cummins and label it as a Mopar part and warranty it themselves... lately they must have a marketing agreement between Cummins and Mopar, so even the parts lookup has become more difficult as Mopar wants to charge their prices for a Cummins part.. when I had quickserve I found myself unable to look up parts for the newest Cummins engine in the Ram, I still remember one of my friends wanting something for his older Ram and him saying the Ram dealer wanted a bunch of money, so I got his serial number and found the Cummins part at about 1/3 the cost.. same thing, different bag. Sadly, since retirement I no longer have access to Cummins Quickserve, so my knowledge base on them is limited to either experience or memory..

 

[OVERKILL]

I agree, since there are oils available for gasoline engines, in proper viscosities I don't understand this attempt at using something else based on chemical analysis..

IMHO anything Mopar has to say about Cummins is borderline suspect.. they buy the engine from Cummins and label it as a Mopar part and warranty it themselves... lately they must have a marketing agreement between Cummins and Mopar, so even the parts lookup has become more difficult as Mopar wants to charge their prices for a Cummins part.. when I had quickserve I found myself unable to look up parts for the newest Cummins engine in the Ram, I still remember one of my friends wanting something for his older Ram and him saying the Ram dealer wanted a bunch of money, so I got his serial number and found the Cummins part at about 1/3 the cost.. same thing, different bag. Sadly, since retirement I no longer have access to Cummins Quickserve, so my knowledge base on them is limited to either experience or memory..

Here's the Ford presentation on CK-4:
Microsoft PowerPoint - Ford Position on CK-4 and FA-4 120616 (astmtmc.org)

And yeah, the Mopar TSB on the 6.7L with HLA's not being allowed 15W-40 due to valvetrain issues and "deposits" is pretty weird...

 

[350Rocket]

I will continue to use M1 0w40 in my gasoline powered 350 Oldsmobile V8 and my 2005 GM 4.8 LS engine. I did use synthetic hdeo's years ago in the Oldsmobile but I came to the conclusion that there wasn't a good reason to do it, it was just a constantly regurgitated suggestion on here. Is it likely to destroy an engine? No. But that doesn't make it a good choice.

 

[MSCH]

Here's the Ford presentation on CK-4:
Microsoft PowerPoint - Ford Position on CK-4 and FA-4 120616 (astmtmc.org)

And yeah, the Mopar TSB on the 6.7L with HLA's not being allowed 15W-40 due to valvetrain issues and "deposits" is pretty weird...

in the beginning when CK4 came out, Ford put out a TSB saying not to use the stuff unless it had the Ford Motorcraft approval number.. of course about 7 years has elapsed and now there are a laundry list of CK4 oils available that have that WS cert on them.

straight from Ford https://www.motorcraft.com/us/en_us...el-motor-oils-meeting-ford-wss-m2c171-f1.html

 

[OVERKILL]

in the beginning when CK4 came out, Ford put out a TSB saying not to use the stuff unless it had the Ford Motorcraft approval number.. of course about 7 years has elapsed and now there are a laundry list of CK4 oils available that have that WS cert on them.

straight from Ford https://www.motorcraft.com/us/en_us...el-motor-oils-meeting-ford-wss-m2c171-f1.html

Yes, I linked that list a few posts above, lol.

 

[MSCH]

Yes, I linked that list a few posts above, lol.

missed it... anyway, I think we all know that if there is a competitive market for any product, the marketplace will eventually offer alternatives.

still remember all them years back and my boss bought the first Eye phone to hit the market. not only did he pay 1 grand for it, but he waited in line for the priveledge.... fast forward and everybody has one that wants one. at a fraction of the price.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

still remember all them years back and my boss bought the first Eye phone to hit the market. not only did he pay 1 grand for it, but he waited in line for the priveledge.... fast forward and everybody has one that wants one. at a fraction of the price.

Uhh, today’s iPhones are even more expensive, reaching ~$1500 now. Just because some carriers shift the apparent cost of the phone into the plan required doesn’t mean they’re not getting their requested price from the people that just have to have the “newest” tech

 

[kschachn]

Uhh, today’s iPhones are even more expensive, reaching ~$1500 now. Just because some carriers shift the apparent cost of the phone into the plan required doesn’t mean they’re not getting their requested price from the people that just have to have the “newest” tech

Yes, if there’s somewhere that I can get one for “a fraction of the price“ let me know