If it helps your OCD, then by all means, crank away, but it really accomplishes nothing. If it did, manufacturers would include priming the oil system in oil change procedures, not just for rebuilt engines.
priming the oil pump
- Thread starter semaj281
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Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Ben -
Once again, a fresh rebuild is WAY different than a broken in engine in a car that sits for a few weeks. A third grader can see this.
The results of cranking are the same in both cases, clearly ill befitting of the "slow" and "useless" descriptors you so ignorantly chose.
Quote:
You don't know engines. I do.
You don't know Mod motors. I do.
Last time we had this discussion a couple of years ago you essentially called [censored] on this priming procedure, now that the actual TSB has been provided your argument shifts. Put simply, you remain willfully ignorant on this topic.
Ben -
Once again, a fresh rebuild is WAY different than a broken in engine in a car that sits for a few weeks. A third grader can see this.
The results of cranking are the same in both cases, clearly ill befitting of the "slow" and "useless" descriptors you so ignorantly chose.
Quote:
You don't know engines. I do.
You don't know Mod motors. I do.
Last time we had this discussion a couple of years ago you essentially called [censored] on this priming procedure, now that the actual TSB has been provided your argument shifts. Put simply, you remain willfully ignorant on this topic.
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: semaj281
My Ford has an easily accessible fuel pump fuse, so each time I do an oil change I unplug it and run the starter for about 5 seconds. Is this going to enough to prevent a dry start? Should I even bother doing this?
There's no need to pull any fuse, you can use "clear flood mode" to crank the engine while the PCM kills the fuel injectors. Zero chance of loading the combustion chamber with any fuel unlike pulling a fuse. Just floor the throttle, crank the engine for 10-15 seconds and that's all that's needed.
The starter builds a little oil pressure with a Modular, in fact this is a Ford approved method for priming the oil system on a new or reman'd engine.
I do this on all my vehicles (if they have the clear flood feature) when I change the oil, simple and effective. I also have the original 180,000 mile starter after years of this.
Do you know if 2008 Mustangs came with this clear flood feature? I just don't want to end up with 6000 rpm on a dry start.
Originally Posted By: semaj281
My Ford has an easily accessible fuel pump fuse, so each time I do an oil change I unplug it and run the starter for about 5 seconds. Is this going to enough to prevent a dry start? Should I even bother doing this?
There's no need to pull any fuse, you can use "clear flood mode" to crank the engine while the PCM kills the fuel injectors. Zero chance of loading the combustion chamber with any fuel unlike pulling a fuse. Just floor the throttle, crank the engine for 10-15 seconds and that's all that's needed.
The starter builds a little oil pressure with a Modular, in fact this is a Ford approved method for priming the oil system on a new or reman'd engine.
I do this on all my vehicles (if they have the clear flood feature) when I change the oil, simple and effective. I also have the original 180,000 mile starter after years of this.
Do you know if 2008 Mustangs came with this clear flood feature? I just don't want to end up with 6000 rpm on a dry start.
Unless the engine is a fresh rebuild and just installed at a shop all you need to do is simply fill the oil filter as much as possible and start the engine. That is all.
This is BITOG but so many people are over thinking this and agonizing over nothing at all.
This is BITOG but so many people are over thinking this and agonizing over nothing at all.
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A broken in engine has oil in the block passages, cyl head, crankshaft passages, etc.
A fresh rebuilt engine does not.
A fresh rebuilt engine does not.
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
A broken in engine has oil in the block passages, cyl head, crankshaft passages, etc.
And with a horizontally mounted oil filter, little to none there.
It all boils down to personal preference, do you care if you have knocks/raps on the initial start up post OC or not? Clear flood cranking primes the oil filter and eliminates these issues, while perhaps unnecessary that "slow useless cranking" is certainly better than a dry start...and Ford agrees.
A broken in engine has oil in the block passages, cyl head, crankshaft passages, etc.
And with a horizontally mounted oil filter, little to none there.
It all boils down to personal preference, do you care if you have knocks/raps on the initial start up post OC or not? Clear flood cranking primes the oil filter and eliminates these issues, while perhaps unnecessary that "slow useless cranking" is certainly better than a dry start...and Ford agrees.
A fast initial idle is what car mfrs do to get the oil up to snuff fast. Not slower than normal, but faster.
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
A fast initial idle is what car mfrs do to get the oil up to snuff fast. Not slower than normal, but faster.
Wrong
http://www.thedieselstop.com/faq/9497faq/tsb/tsb/files/012406.pdf
A fast initial idle is what car mfrs do to get the oil up to snuff fast. Not slower than normal, but faster.
Wrong
http://www.thedieselstop.com/faq/9497faq/tsb/tsb/files/012406.pdf
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
A fast initial idle is what car mfrs do to get the oil up to snuff fast. Not slower than normal, but faster.
Wrong
http://www.thedieselstop.com/faq/9497faq/tsb/tsb/files/012406.pdf
Here is an important note on the above TSB or document, that you seem to be missing or misinterpreting.
Quote:
If a remanufactured engine is being installed, after
the installation has been completed, ensure the
crankcase is filled to specification with engine oil.
Disable the fuel supply to the fuel injectors (disable
inertia fuel shut-off switch) and crank the engine in
(15) second increments, until the oil pump is
primed. An oil pressure gauge can be used to
assist in determining when oil pressure is obtained.
They specifically talk about remanufactured or overhauled engines and they clearly say that the engine should be cranked at 15 second intervals until a specific pressure is reached, meaning it may take several cranking attempts to reach said pressure spec. They obviously use 15 second intervals to protect the starter, which you say is no big deal, and it is a one event only procedure. Also said procedure is for priming the oil pump only, no where does it say that it will prime the whole system.
If you do that every single oil change then a) there is no guarantee that 15 second of cranking will prime the oil pump, yet alone the whole system. (which by the way is primed, hence our argument that it is not needed), and b) you are putting extra stress on the starter.
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
A fast initial idle is what car mfrs do to get the oil up to snuff fast. Not slower than normal, but faster.
Wrong
http://www.thedieselstop.com/faq/9497faq/tsb/tsb/files/012406.pdf
Here is an important note on the above TSB or document, that you seem to be missing or misinterpreting.
Quote:
If a remanufactured engine is being installed, after
the installation has been completed, ensure the
crankcase is filled to specification with engine oil.
Disable the fuel supply to the fuel injectors (disable
inertia fuel shut-off switch) and crank the engine in
(15) second increments, until the oil pump is
primed. An oil pressure gauge can be used to
assist in determining when oil pressure is obtained.
They specifically talk about remanufactured or overhauled engines and they clearly say that the engine should be cranked at 15 second intervals until a specific pressure is reached, meaning it may take several cranking attempts to reach said pressure spec. They obviously use 15 second intervals to protect the starter, which you say is no big deal, and it is a one event only procedure. Also said procedure is for priming the oil pump only, no where does it say that it will prime the whole system.
If you do that every single oil change then a) there is no guarantee that 15 second of cranking will prime the oil pump, yet alone the whole system. (which by the way is primed, hence our argument that it is not needed), and b) you are putting extra stress on the starter.
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Here is an important note on the above TSB or document, that you seem to be missing or misinterpreting.
Neither, actually.
Quote:
They specifically talk about remanufactured or overhauled engines and they clearly say that the engine should be cranked at 15 second intervals until a specific pressure is reached, meaning it may take several cranking attempts to reach said pressure spec.
This is correct, reman'd engines usually takes 4-6 15 second intervals to see oil pressure.
Quote:
They obviously use 15 second intervals to protect the starter
Correct
Quote:
which you say is no big deal, and it is a one event only procedure.
Post oil change it is a one event procedure to prime the oil filter. I'm not speaking on theory here, but actual first hand experience.
Quote:
Also said procedure is for priming the oil pump only, no where does it say that it will prime the whole system.
It primes the entire system, I'm assuming you've never had the cam cover off of a Modular as it is being cranked.
Quote:
there is no guarantee that 15 second of cranking will prime the oil pump
Clear flood cranking post OC isn't intended to prime the oil pump, but rather to fill the dry horizontally mounted oil filter...which it does. 10-15 seconds of cranking post OC usually results in 6-8 psi of oil pressure by the end of the clear flood "event".
The POINT of posting the TSB is to illustrate the fact that cranking the engine isn't a "slow, useless" procedure as claimed in this thread and in fact is quite useful even when used to prime brand new or reman'd engines.
Here is an important note on the above TSB or document, that you seem to be missing or misinterpreting.
Neither, actually.
Quote:
They specifically talk about remanufactured or overhauled engines and they clearly say that the engine should be cranked at 15 second intervals until a specific pressure is reached, meaning it may take several cranking attempts to reach said pressure spec.
This is correct, reman'd engines usually takes 4-6 15 second intervals to see oil pressure.
Quote:
They obviously use 15 second intervals to protect the starter
Correct
Quote:
which you say is no big deal, and it is a one event only procedure.
Post oil change it is a one event procedure to prime the oil filter. I'm not speaking on theory here, but actual first hand experience.
Quote:
Also said procedure is for priming the oil pump only, no where does it say that it will prime the whole system.
It primes the entire system, I'm assuming you've never had the cam cover off of a Modular as it is being cranked.
Quote:
there is no guarantee that 15 second of cranking will prime the oil pump
Clear flood cranking post OC isn't intended to prime the oil pump, but rather to fill the dry horizontally mounted oil filter...which it does. 10-15 seconds of cranking post OC usually results in 6-8 psi of oil pressure by the end of the clear flood "event".
The POINT of posting the TSB is to illustrate the fact that cranking the engine isn't a "slow, useless" procedure as claimed in this thread and in fact is quite useful even when used to prime brand new or reman'd engines.
On the Ford Modular side of things there is actually a tool that you screw into the unused port on the oil filter housing that shoots pressurized oil into the engine for initial startup. Ford Racing Performance Parts sells the tool and it is fairly inexpensive.
As far as cranking the motor on every oil change, I wouldn't bother, just start it up and go. The .5-1 second of scary noises will not cause that much wear, and there should be enough oil left on the critical surfaces to not hurt anything.
As far as cranking the motor on every oil change, I wouldn't bother, just start it up and go. The .5-1 second of scary noises will not cause that much wear, and there should be enough oil left on the critical surfaces to not hurt anything.
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
As far as cranking the motor on every oil change, I wouldn't bother, just start it up and go. The .5-1 second of scary noises will not cause that much wear, and there should be enough oil left on the critical surfaces to not hurt anything.
As already stated, it all comes down to personal preference. My point is that clear flood cranking actually does prime the system, builds a little oil pressure and totally eliminates that 1 second of scary noises post oil change.
As far as cranking the motor on every oil change, I wouldn't bother, just start it up and go. The .5-1 second of scary noises will not cause that much wear, and there should be enough oil left on the critical surfaces to not hurt anything.
As already stated, it all comes down to personal preference. My point is that clear flood cranking actually does prime the system, builds a little oil pressure and totally eliminates that 1 second of scary noises post oil change.
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Starting the car is better than slow useless cranking.
I would tend to agree with this in the case of a Hi Po cam with big springs in an old pushrod motor. Crane Cams techs talked this to death years ago, and what they wanted was a quick fire, then run it up to really fast idle speed Min. 1500 rpm) and hold it at least that fast for the first 30 minutes of operation.
But Fords TSB does trump any anecdotal experience, as the Mod motors are uniquely 'new' in my world and many other old wrenches.
Point: Ben!
Starting the car is better than slow useless cranking.
I would tend to agree with this in the case of a Hi Po cam with big springs in an old pushrod motor. Crane Cams techs talked this to death years ago, and what they wanted was a quick fire, then run it up to really fast idle speed Min. 1500 rpm) and hold it at least that fast for the first 30 minutes of operation.
But Fords TSB does trump any anecdotal experience, as the Mod motors are uniquely 'new' in my world and many other old wrenches.
Point: Ben!
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
As far as cranking the motor on every oil change, I wouldn't bother, just start it up and go. The .5-1 second of scary noises will not cause that much wear, and there should be enough oil left on the critical surfaces to not hurt anything.
As already stated, it all comes down to personal preference. My point is that clear flood cranking actually does prime the system, builds a little oil pressure and totally eliminates that 1 second of scary noises post oil change.
Exactly. Now on a reman engine from Ford a lot of times they only use the factory specified motor oil for assembly lube which would indicate the priming TSB. Anything I have built I have used dedicated engine assembly lube.
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
As far as cranking the motor on every oil change, I wouldn't bother, just start it up and go. The .5-1 second of scary noises will not cause that much wear, and there should be enough oil left on the critical surfaces to not hurt anything.
As already stated, it all comes down to personal preference. My point is that clear flood cranking actually does prime the system, builds a little oil pressure and totally eliminates that 1 second of scary noises post oil change.
Exactly. Now on a reman engine from Ford a lot of times they only use the factory specified motor oil for assembly lube which would indicate the priming TSB. Anything I have built I have used dedicated engine assembly lube.
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
On the Ford Modular side of things there is actually a tool that you screw into the unused port on the oil filter housing that shoots pressurized oil into the engine for initial startup. Ford Racing Performance Parts sells the tool and it is fairly inexpensive.
Do you remember what this tool is called?
On the Ford Modular side of things there is actually a tool that you screw into the unused port on the oil filter housing that shoots pressurized oil into the engine for initial startup. Ford Racing Performance Parts sells the tool and it is fairly inexpensive.
Do you remember what this tool is called?
I couldn't find the FRPP ones, but here is the basic idea from Melling at Jegs http://www.jegs.com/p/Melling/Melling-Pre-Lube-Engine-Oiler/1398393/10002/-1
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
A fast initial idle is what car mfrs do to get the oil up to snuff fast. Not slower than normal, but faster.
Wrong
http://www.thedieselstop.com/faq/9497faq/tsb/tsb/files/012406.pdf
Read your own post's PDF. It is about NEW and REMANUFACTURED engines.
There is nothing about broken in engines and the fast iitial idle that is on new cars.
Wrong? Yes... YOU!
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
A fast initial idle is what car mfrs do to get the oil up to snuff fast. Not slower than normal, but faster.
Wrong
http://www.thedieselstop.com/faq/9497faq/tsb/tsb/files/012406.pdf
Read your own post's PDF. It is about NEW and REMANUFACTURED engines.
There is nothing about broken in engines and the fast iitial idle that is on new cars.
Wrong? Yes... YOU!
Are you high?
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