PP and Ultra

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twigdog

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Am I missing something here or are these not all PAO? If I'm reading these right, there is enough dino to carry the add pack, 1 - 5 percent, and the rest is pao for the PP.

http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GSAP_msds_00018746.PDF

http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GSAP_msds_00018715.PDF

http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GSAP_msds_00018740.PDF

And the Ultra is more of a group III/IV blend or at least a little muddier in the discription.

http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GSAP_msds_00061492.PDF

http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GSAP_msds_00061491.PDF

http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GSAP_msds_00061493.PDF

Probably discussed to no end already, but I missed it if it was.

Twigdog
 
Ultra is III, IV and V. Percentages are unknown and will likely remain that way. Still a promising product and doing nicely in out 5.4
 
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
What gets me is on the bottle it says it "Cleans 35% better than our next best oil", I take it that is Pennzoil Platinum.

yes
 
Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
MSDS are not a good source of information on composition.


You know a better source? Like if you ask, they'll just tell you?

We have to try to "glean" info from any source available.
 
Between MSDS and Johnny I think I have a pretty decent grasp on this product. Tell me do you really think a company like shell would risk everything and lie on an MSDS sheet?

I think not
 
The PP lists polyolefins. This is group III. Polyolefin does not mean polyalphaolefin. I don't see any reference to PAO in PP.

Ultra lists "blend of synthetic hydrocarbon, polyalphaolefin and additives". The "synthetic hydrocarbon" is likely group III, but could contain group V. Ultra actually lists PAO as part of the formulation. There is no way to tell how much.

I think that the performance of the formulation is much more important than the specifics of the base stocks.
 
Originally Posted By: GMorg
The PP lists polyolefins. This is group III. Polyolefin does not mean polyalphaolefin. I don't see any reference to PAO in PP.



How are polyolefins Grp III? I thought they were "engineered" molecules which makes them Grp IV. I thought Grp III was "hydro-cracked" petroleum not engineered -- just highly processed.

Please enlighten me....
 
Well, good point. Any polyalkene is going be made by a polymerization process and would therefore be "synthetic" by any definition. The feedstock for the polymerization can be different between polyolefin and a polyalphaolefin.

PO is not necessarily PAO. PAO is a PO.
 
Originally Posted By: GMorg
Well, good point. Any polyalkene is going be made by a polymerization process and would therefore be "synthetic" by any definition. The feedstock for the polymerization can be different between polyolefin and a polyalphaolefin.

PO is not necessarily PAO. PAO is a PO.


Agreed, but maybe the MSDS is using the term polyolefins as a generic term for PAO just as ester is used for describing POE.
 
Sorry. I saw the P work and got a little excited. So if it's not a group IV or V, then what is it? I guess I've never seen it before, so I'm with Zehed, please enlighten.
 
Since Group V is everything not defined in groups I-IV, and since group IV is defined as PAOs (at least to my limited knowledge), I would expect the other POs to be included in group V. However, I do not see reason that other POs would have been excluded from group IV. Someone that knows more than I about the definitions of groups will have to chime in.
 
I would expect that there could be an olefin stream produced from cracking heavier feedstocks in the absence of hydrogen (cracked, but not hydrocracked). I would expect a range of unsaturation (monoenes, dienes, trienes, ect). The basic chemistry that is used to make PAO from dodecene (or alpha olefins of other lengths) should be same to make PO from such feedstocks.
 
Looks like both are made from ethylene. Would that not put them both in the same group? How can one product made from ethylene be a group III and another be a group IV?


1) "In organic chemistry, an alkene, olefin, or olefine is an unsaturated chemical compound containing at least one carbon-to-carbon double bond.[1] The simplest acyclic alkenes, with only one double bond and no other functional groups, form a homologous series of hydrocarbons with the general formula CnH2n.[2]

The simplest alkene is ethylene (C2H4), which has the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry (IUPAC) name ethene. Alkenes are also called olefins (an archaic synonym, widely used in the petrochemical industry). Aromatic compounds are often drawn as cyclic alkenes, but their structure and properties are different and they are not considered to be alkenes"

2) A polyolefin is a polymer produced from a simple olefin (also called an alkene with the general formula CnH2n) as a monomer. For example, polyethylene is the polyolefin produced by polymerizing the olefin ethylene.

3) A more specific type of olefin is a poly-alpha-olefin (or poly-α-olefin, sometimes abbreviated as PAO), a polymer made by polymerizing an alpha-olefin. An alpha-olefin (or α-olefin) is an alkene where the carbon-carbon double bond starts at the α-carbon atom, i.e. the double bond is between the #1 and #2 carbons in the molecule. Common alpha-olefins used as co-monomers to give a polymer alkyl branching groups are similar to 1-hexene or may be longer.
 
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