Pour point and API?

[rlme36]

In an effort to research for myself the M1 GIII debacle, I just looked at my remaining stock of 0w-40 M1 and noticed that I have one bottle with -49 pour point, but the rest are -65. Something has definitely changed, does this mean that this version is a GIII?

I don't want to get the horse animation from anyone, but I am just wondering if that is a fairly definitive way to know while at the shelf to know one way or another.

The other question I have is why doesn't Amsoil or Redline get the API cert? Is it like the EPA and BMW McLaren's just to costly for the # we sell?

thanks

rob

 

[TimVipond]

The lower priced AMSOIL group III synthetics XL5W20, XL5W30, XL10W30, XL10W40 and the PCO syntetic blend 15W40 are all certified by API.

 

[TimVipond]

Here is a detailed explanation why the other products are not API certified.

https://www.amsoil.com/dealer/askamsoil/api_licensing/api_licensing.aspx .

 

[ConfederateTyrant]

I noticed that on the Mobil 1 0w-40 oils lately, I remember last year reading them and it saying -65, but now it's -49. I would think the possible Group III blend could be the reason for it, but that still hasn't been 100% proven. Looking at majority PAO oils (Amsoil and past Mobil 1) the pour points were typically in the -50's to -60's. As you said, something has changed. I do agree that performance should be the main concern, not the base oil, but I see a problem with PAO cost for Group III product. Especially when the UOAs are not turning up as good as they once were.

Redline oils, from my understanding, cannot get the API certification because of the amount of ZDDP they use. This was also the case for Amsoil SL oils, but from the UOAs of the SM Amsoil oils, that doesn't appear to be the case. It does have to do with the cost per gallon sold, and every time it's reformulated it must be tested again, so cost is a major issue, especially since both are smaller companies than ExxonMobil.

Also, as I say, why let "the man" tell you what you can and cannot use to make a superior product? That's why the API certification doesn't mean anything. It means it passed some tests, but does not mean it outperforms non-certified, or other certified, oils

 

[rlme36]

Thanks for the info, I should have looked around more. That does give a great view of why they don't do the certification on all their oils.

 

[rlme36]

So essentially all things the same a lower pour point could generally mean a better base stock.

I hear what your saying about the API testing. Was that a recent thing with the ZDDP being lower for emmissions or has that always been the case? For instance, M1 0w-40 did it have it before and now it has less to meet the SM cert?

Why can't oil be easy like buying bottled water

 

[Ugly3]

Quote:

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So essentially all things the same a lower pour point could generally mean a better base stock.

I hear what your saying about the API testing. Was that a recent thing with the ZDDP being lower for emmissions or has that always been the case? For instance, M1 0w-40 did it have it before and now it has less to meet the SM cert?

Why can't oil be easy like buying bottled water

---

Don't get me started on bottled water!

 

[ConfederateTyrant]

It has to be above .06% but lower than .08% inorder to meet SM specifications. However, other additives are used, not sure exactly which ones, but SM oils seem to do quite well at preventing wear, even with the lower ZDDP.

SL specification required a max of .10% ZDDP. So it has been lowering with each specification, but I'm not sure when it exactly started. I am new to the major details of the oil world.

 

[BillionPa]

a higher pour point could also mean less use of pour point depressants.... which is generally a good thing

 

[rlme36]

Quote:

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It has to be above .06% but lower than .08% inorder to meet SM specifications. However, other additives are used, not sure exactly which ones, but SM oils seem to do quite well at preventing wear, even with the lower ZDDP.

SL specification required a max of .10% ZDDP. So it has been lowering with each specification, but I'm not sure when it exactly started. I am new to the major details of the oil world.

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So as the cert specs have been "advancing" they have been reducing this one particular ingredient that is deemed harmful, but also has a good side for particular engine design.

 

[garageman402]

Quote:

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Here is a detailed explanation why the other products are not API certified.

https://www.amsoil.com/dealer/askamsoil/api_licensing/api_licensing.aspx .

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Thank you, Tim, for posting this link, I have been searching the forum for a definition to Group I, II, II, etc. basestocks, this site provided one.

I will start another thread, and run the risk of the deadhorse animation, concerning API approval.

-Bob

 

[ConfederateTyrant]

No need for another thread, a search will bring up multiple threads of API certification and Amsoil oils.

 

[Drivebelt]

Quote:

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In an effort to research for myself the M1 GIII debacle, I just looked at my remaining stock of 0w-40 M1 and noticed that I have one bottle with -49 pour point, but the rest are -65. Something has definitely changed, does this mean that this version is a GIII?

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Is it possible that Mobil changed from using Fahrenheit to Celsius?

-49C = -56F

Mobile 5w30 … pour-point … -54C = -65F

 

[TeeDub]

One of the main benefits of Polyalphaolefin (PAO) Oligomers is that they don't require pour point depressants. In fact the PP of a typical 4 Cst (@ 100C), PAO basestock is about -60C/-76F. The PP of a fully formulated oil made with this basestock is generally in the -55F to -60F range. As just one example, the PP of the PAO based Amsoil 10w30/ATM is -58F.

If the PP of the Mobil 1, 0w-40 has gone up that much it's a good bet they are now using a blend of PAO and Group III stocks. I would guess they are using just enough PAO to achieve the required viscometrics for the 0w-xx spec, ie a CCS viscosity < 6200 Cp @ -35C and a pumping viscosity < 40,000 Cp @ -40C.

The Amsoil 0w-30/TSO, 5w30/ASL and 10w30/ATM now meet the chemical limits of API/SM. In fact the additive chemistry they are using in their 5w30/10w-30 looks like a beefed up version of the Mobil 1 add pack. Amsoil chooses not to license all their formulations mainly because it limits their ability to negotiate better prices with their basestock and additive suppliers.

TD