Porsche Engineering:Going Downhill?

[SubLGT]

I was surprised to read about the high numbers of failures in the 6 cyl Porsche motor (especially the Boxster), due to intermediate shaft failure ( and rear seal failure, and cylinder liner failure). Haven't they been refining this design for over 40 years?

Look for the story here (I was not able to link directly to the story):
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com

Here is a photo of the carnage:
http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=12707

I guess when you spend the big bucks on a Porsche nowadays, you no longer get superior engineering and superior customer support.

 

[tom slick]

I'm not sure Porsche was ever known for reliability, they've certainly had some stinkers.

AFIK the water cooled engines are not an evolution of the old air cooled engines.

 

[ffracer]

Engineering for performance and engineering for reliability are two different animals....

Most German cars are known for the first, not the second. Trust me, I've experienced it.

 

[d00df00d]

Not entirely. There is a large degree of overlap. That's why all successful car companies have successful racing teams behind them.

Who knows what's going on here, though...

 

[sprintman]

Ha! Get a BMW and discover rhe world of pain. Still you forgive it except the CDV (Clutch Delay Valve) which screws you up. Fun....s

 

[XCELERATIONRULES]

Ever see a Porsche after an accident?
Not usually much left.

 

[MrCritical]

Reliability?
Ferrari 15k timing belt replacement?

 

[Kestas]

I too know the pain of German 'reliability' with my 95 Mercedes E320. Something major goes wrong with the body every 2-3K.

 

[Steve S]

German automobiles are the K@N airfilter of the auto industry .

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: sprintman
Still you forgive it except the CDV (Clutch Delay Valve) which screws you up. Fun....s

CDV can easily be removed. I threw it out in mine.

However, that's only half the battle. My car has the devilish SAC (self-adjusting clutch) - BMW's solution to a problem that no one really complained about. It is supposed to maintain the same location of the clutch engagement point as the clutch wears down. In reality, the various mechanisms related to SAC just stop working smoothly and cause the clutch engagement to be unpredictable and contribute to accelerated clutch wear. When my clutch finally dies, I am getting an after-market non-SAC clutch.

 

[MaximaGuy]

German auto engg doesn't have quality even close to Ford let alone setting benchmarks. Go read the long term reliability reports of MB, BMW, VW(Audi), they really suck, in some cases it is pathetic (especially mercedes/benz).

They lack of quality may be good for Europeans but not in America. We have a choice and "informed" folks exercise their choice.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: MaximaGuy
German auto engg doesn't have quality even close to Ford let alone setting benchmarks. Go read the long term reliability reports of MB, BMW, VW(Audi), they really suck, in some cases it is pathetic (especially mercedes/benz).

Some of that superior US manufacturer quality must have rubbed off of Chrysler and onto MB.

 

[MaximaGuy]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Some of that superior US manufacturer quality must have rubbed off of Chrysler and onto MB.


IMO, the whole Chrysler takeover was very overwhelming for MB. They had to cut costs at all fronts to justify the buy to shareholders who were in arms back in Europe. With subsequent depreciation in stock value raised quality issues and cutting corners in venerated brands like Benz. MB hasn't recovered or will it ever recover, it was a bodily blow that was too big to put bandaid on. I sincerely hope they come back to where they were in the 80s, it is a hard lesson and slow process.

In short, a company should be nimble and have the unions under control. When Nissan was in deep [censored] back in the 80's and 90's, Toyota was approached for taking over, but then Toyota backed out since Nissan did not fit into the Toyota culture.

Look today, Toyota is #1.

 

[Kestas]

I relayed my sentiments to my German friends. They say I should consider Audi for the most reliable of the German brands. Consumer Reports reflects the same thing.

Way back in the 80s, some colleagues of mine said that Mercedes was strangling itself by adding new features every year to their models and making them overly complicated. If they had instead taken their engineering and development money and put it to improving the existing features on their models, they would have been way ahead of the pack and maintained their lead as a top luxury brand.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Kestas
If they had instead taken their engineering and development money and put it to improving the existing features on their models, they would have been way ahead of the pack and maintained their lead as a top luxury brand.

Depends on what the market perceives as "luxury". To a lot of people luxury = a ton of the latest gadgets/features, a lot of them unheard of in the '80s, even on MB cars. If Toyota/Honda/Nissan luxury cars offer these new features, how would MB be perceived without them?

 

[Tornado Red]

Originally Posted By: MaximaGuy
IMO, the whole Chrysler takeover was very overwhelming for MB. They had to cut costs at all fronts to justify the buy to shareholders who were in arms back in Europe. With subsequent depreciation in stock value raised quality issues and cutting corners in venerated brands like Benz. MB hasn't recovered [n]or will it ever recover, it was a bodily blow that was too big to put bandaid on. I sincerely hope they come back to where they were in the 80s, it is a hard lesson and slow process.

Before Mercedes bought Chrysler, it was extremely vulnerable to an unfriendly takeover. Buying Chrysler was a defensive move, putting cash to work. It didn't turn out very well, but at least Daimler is an independent company today and not the subsidiary of some other company.

 

[Kestas]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Depends on what the market perceives as "luxury". To a lot of people luxury = a ton of the latest gadgets/features, a lot of them unheard of in the '80s, even on MB cars. If Toyota/Honda/Nissan luxury cars offer these new features, how would MB be perceived without them?

You speak an unfortunate truth, QP. These tons of gadgets and features will be the downfall of German engineering.

There's evidence these new gadgets and features aren't as thoroughly tested as they should be to last the life of the vehicle... or do German manufacturers actually think their vehicle reliability is acceptable to the public?

Unfortunately, I believe I know the answer. Most car manufacturers cater to the new car buyer. New luxury car buyers typically only keep the car through warranty or lease. Luxury car manufacturers only care about the initial buyer. They don't care about the secondary market. This is shown by the consumer surveys with Mercedes owners. Even though MB gets low marks for reliability, their customer satisfaction is rated high.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Kestas
Luxury car manufacturers only care about the initial buyer. They don't care about the secondary market.

Well, I think they care about the secondary market to the extent in which resale values are affected. If reliability is perceived to be low, this will be reflected in low resale values after, say, 3-years (duration of a typical lease). And if the resale value is low, the lease payments will be high. Very high lease payments will turn off some of the potential new car buyers.

However, I suppose luxury brands aren't as affected by this as economy brands since the luxury car buyers are a little less price-sensitive. On the other hand, these luxury brands extended their basic warranties to last a bit past the typical lease term to put the second owners a little more at ease. Moreover, CPO programs with further extended warranties are available, alas they come at an additional cost.

Still, from a second owner standpoint, the thing like "free maintenance" (which in reality often means "no maintenance") scares me a bit. Now not only can I expect my electronic gizmos to fail, but also my powertrain.

 

[d00df00d]

Excellent point.

While I understand it fully, I hate the conception that gadgets and plushness fully and exclusively constitute luxury for most people. When a person buys a car, they are claiming the right to be trusted to spend thousands of dollars on a vehicle weighing thousands of pounds that will then be hurl down roadways populated by many other human beings. I tend to feel that, if someone is to claim that right, he or she should have enough knowledge and appreciation of the machines to feel coddled by solid engineering at least as much as by a soft seat and a talking computer.

 

[BrianWC]

I think the whole ideal of legendary German engineering is overhyped anyway. They made great small, tight handling cars at a time when American manufacturers were making boats with wheels. This endeared the to the enthusiast market. But I can remember my uncle, who owned practically every 911 (and even one 914) that Porsche made from the 60's thru the mid 80's. His cars always left a puddle of oil in the driveway. He just came to accept that "Porsches leak oil." Small trade-off for the performance.

Same thing with older Mercedes. I had a friend who was a petite young debutante who's father made her drive his old 6.9l 450SEL throughout college because it was a "good handling German car." Never mind he was always sending her money when it broke down.