Plastic radiator tank and replacement thoughts.

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I've always been under the impression that a cross-flow radiator is more efficient and allows more cooling capacity.


I don't see any thermodynamic reason for that at all. Given the same total surface area, the cooling capacity should be pretty much the same unless you get to where you're comparing EXTREMELY rectangular radiators (like a Jeep Cherokee) where the shorter dimension is about 1/4 of the long dimension. In that case I'd think you would want the tubes parallel to the longest dimension. The problem with tubes parallel to the shortest dimension is that you potentially can get very unequal flow among the tubes in that case.



You're right there is no thermodynamic reason. If you check the link it mentions that it has to do with the pressure cap orientation on a downflow radiator not being on the lowside and more coolant is forced out the pressure cap. The info is what some radiator manufacturers provided. Also like you mentioned, it's a geometry thing where the horizontal dimension is typically much wider than the height on most cars.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Plastic-tank radiators have been a [censored] in my family. We've had a couple fail in less than 80k miles (replaced by an all-brass aftermarket unit which is still in the truck another 150,000 miles and many years later), and I've had one plastic radiator last well over 200k miles (1993 LH car).

My '66 has what I consider the ultimate- an all-welded 100% aluminum radiator. Very custom, unfortunately expensive, but I don't expect to ever have a problem with it. Except it can never be cleaned out if it should clog, just like a plastic tank/aluminum core radiator.


I've never had a plastic radiator leak in my stable of cars. I know of people who have, but the typical wisdom is that aluminum/plastic radiators last much longer than copper-brass. This is for a couple reason copper-brass is harder toprotect from corrosion in a cooling system and lead solder is even worse. For some reason and I'm not sure why, it seems Japanese radiators are more prone to leaking. I don't think it has anything to do with being downflow but maybe.

I totally agree that aluminum tanks would be the ultimate. A radiator like that could last virtually forever.

 

[mechanicx]

That has been my experience. The only radiator that I personally had that leaked was a copper-brass down-flow radiator in a Toyota pick up. I sent it out to a radiator shop to be repaired and it quickly leaked again, was repaired again and leaked. the repair costed as much as a radiator especially a plastic tank would. So what use is copper-radiators being easier to repair?

This radiator leaked at about only 2-3 years old with the OE Toyota red coolant which has inhibitors to protect copper-brass /lead solder radiators. It was all on the radiator.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Plastic-tank radiators have been a [censored] in my family.


Grumble... I really didn't think about the censor catching "c--pshoot," referencing a game of chance commonly played in Vegas and not an obscenity. It makes me sound like I was dissing plastic radiators. I wasn't- I meant it was like a game of chance- some worked *great* and some worked badly. I generally think they're find.

I disagree with brass radiators not lasting as long, though. My experience with them is yes, you have to replace them... every FORTY YEARS or so (just replaced the original in my '66 Dodge in 2007). True, modern ones probably won't last that long, and I'll bet you a big part of the problems people are seeing with brass radiators today is due to lower quality (reduced lead) solders being used to manufacture them.

 

[Sayjac]

Well the choice came down to Wally's Peak EL and the Chevron Supreme low silicate traditional green. Went with the Chevron this time for ~$2.50 more. See how it looks after running it a year, hopefully it can go at least 2.

Had a plastic tank fail after about ~100k on an 89 GEO Prizm (great car btw). It was the first time I had any experience with a plastic tank and having no fix. Have an OE plastic tank on an 01 Tacoma with ~99k that has seen both Toyota LL and universal coolants.

So I went with the Chevron and maybe by the time I'm ready to replace it, there will be more readily available full strength alternatives, or not.

 

[mechanicx]

Yeah I think brass radiator life has a lot to do with high lead solder and the coolant inhibitors. The coolant needs the right inhibitors to protect copper and soldier. Ideally, if the soldier and coolant is right a copper radiator has the potential to last longer than plastic. I still think aluminum radiators with aluminum tanks is the ultimate on several counts.

 

[mechanicx]

I think Chevron green is an excellent choice. I'm totally confident it will look great for 1 year and even 2 years. Since you keep on top of coolant maintenance the Green will not have a chance to get depleted.

Now if your waterpump should go out in the next couple years just don't go blaming the Green

. Waterpumps are one thing I've always had go out anywhere from 50-120K miles and with Dexcool. They are kind of like alternators, and a wearing part.

In all seriousness the Japanese are about as goofy with silicates as the Europens are about phosphates. Either could potentially theoretically cause slight problems, but that's why coolant systems now use a lower silicate formula, durable waterpump seals, clean water, scale inhibitors etc. They are holding on to old beliefs that have been disproven in US service history.

 

[Chris142]

You definatly do not want to run Dexcool in a soldered radiator. Dex does not protect them like the old green stuff did and they will leak real quick with Dex in them.

I'm not a chemist so I cant tell you exactly why.

 

[mechanicx]

Yeah true most Dexcool formulas are probably not good for copper radiators. I think silicates, molybdate, triazoles, nitrate, and sodium benzoate protect copper and/or soldier. Most Dexcools doesn't have those. G-05 should work good because it has several of those inhibitors. Green seems to protect copper radiators. I wonder if the coolant's pH makes a difference too. Green has a higher pH.

 

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I think Chevron green is an excellent choice. I'm totally confident it will look great for 1 year and even 2 years. Since you keep on top of coolant maintenance the Green will not have a chance to get depleted.

Now if your waterpump should go out in the next couple years just don't go blaming the Green

. Waterpumps are one thing I've always had go out anywhere from 50-120K miles and with Dexcool. They are kind of like alternators, and a wearing part.

In all seriousness the Japanese are about as goofy with silicates as the Europens are about phosphates. Either could potentially theoretically cause slight problems, but that's why coolant systems now use a lower silicate formula, durable waterpump seals, clean water, scale inhibitors etc. They are holding on to old beliefs that have been disproven in US service history.

I wasn't even going to mention that, even in passing. And forget blaming the Green, I'm starting a thread with your display name in the title.

J/K

I am hoping to see a full strength non proprietary Asian or better yet, a 2eha free full strength universal like Peak GL become readily available, not betting on it though. I could have gotten it the premix on sale at Kmart for $8.99, but no high test anywhere.

 

[mechanicx]

To tell you the truth I have my doubts that Longlife caused the radiator failure but the potential is certainly there. I think an OAT like PGL and heck even the over-priced Nissan EL could be no better on certain plastic seals. But one thing is sure, Green is the least potentially plasticizing coolant out there.

I'm sure you will do this but it's key to get at least 95% of the Longlife out and at least 45% concentrate of the Green in for it took work at it's best.

 

[Sayjac]

Oh yeah. Excluding the initial drain, 4 other drains and the water was clear. Could have gotten away 3, but distilled water is inexpensive. Then a 50% concentration works out well because system capacity is 8 qts.

And don't hedge on the Long Life/radiator leak now, it's too late. lol.

 

[PandaBear]

Maybe my cars have cheap radiator that only cost $120 or so, why is it such a big deal to take a gamble on today's brass/copper radiator when they are easily cracked or defective? Just replace the plastic tanked radiator when it goes bad, easily enough to change yourself.

Now water pump.... I'd do everything to avoid damaging that.

 

[djb]

Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Radiators are so cheap why would a person even consider fixing an old radiator ?


Not all radiators are cheap. A early-1990s Camry radiator lists for almost $743 at the dealer. And this is for the highest production quantity car of its time.

Replacement plastic tanks look pretty appealing, at least if you don't consider an aftermarket radiator.


The service manual shows the tool to re-crimp the tanks. It's a controlled-pressure hydraulic device that looks pretty awkward to work around tank inlets.

 

[Chris142]

Originally Posted By: djb
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Radiators are so cheap why would a person even consider fixing an old radiator ?


Not all radiators are cheap. A early-1990s Camry radiator lists for almost $743 at the dealer. And this is for the highest production quantity car of its time.

Replacement plastic tanks look pretty appealing, at least if you don't consider an aftermarket radiator.


The service manual shows the tool to re-crimp the tanks. It's a controlled-pressure hydraulic device that looks pretty awkward to work around tank inlets.


I can sell you a new PTR for that Camry for $139+tax. It's a OEM radiator but in an aftermarket box and not a toyota box.

That hydraulic crimping tool is for the birds! We have had much better luck with Vice grips! Once in the press we Set them to Crimp how tight you want your crimp and have at it.

 

[Steve S]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
That has been my experience. The only radiator that I personally had that leaked was a copper-brass down-flow radiator in a Toyota pick up. I sent it out to a radiator shop to be repaired and it quickly leaked again, was repaired again and leaked. the repair costed as much as a radiator especially a plastic tank would. So what use is copper-radiators being easier to repair?

This radiator leaked at about only 2-3 years old with the OE Toyota red coolant which has inhibitors to protect copper-brass /lead solder radiators. It was all on the radiator.
The brass is paper thin.

 

[Sayjac]

Quote:
Now water pump.... I'd do everything to avoid damaging that.
You make a good point. The main reason I chose the Chevron Supreme is because it specifically says low silicate formulation in bold right under the name. Could have gotten some other green cheaper, but they didn't say that.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear

Now water pump.... I'd do everything to avoid damaging that.


No coolant is going to damage any water pump unless its left in there so long that additives start to precipitate out. All the hysteria over silicates is just so much nonsense its frustrating. Silicate compounds can actually be lubricants, its only when they're badly neglected that problems arise.

 

[Chris142]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum

No coolant is going to damage any water pump unless its left in there so long that additives start to precipitate out. All the hysteria over silicates is just so much nonsense its frustrating. Silicate compounds can actually be lubricants, its only when they're badly neglected that problems arise.

 

[djb]

Originally Posted By: Chris142
Originally Posted By: djb
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Radiators are so cheap why would a person even consider fixing an old radiator ?


Not all radiators are cheap. A early-1990s Camry radiator lists for almost $743 at the dealer. And this is for the highest production quantity car of its time.

Replacement plastic tanks look pretty appealing, at least if you don't consider an aftermarket radiator.


The service manual shows the tool to re-crimp the tanks. It's a controlled-pressure hydraulic device that looks pretty awkward to work around tank inlets.

I can sell you a new PTR for that Camry for $139+tax.


You missed the point. Radiators can be very expensive. You can find $30 radiators for that Camry model on FleaBay, but not for a less common car. And where there is no alternative, the dealer price might be even higher.

A few weeks ago I watched a shop in the BVI fab a new end tank from a dozen individual metal pieces. Even with the high cost of labor, it was obviously cheaper to repair than buy new.