Pictures of what's in New Oil

[Terry]

Stinky, thanks for posting this info and I look forward to the cleanliness testing that is forthcoming.

Fresh oil contamination is an issue, although I doubt as frequent in automotive packaging because of the amount of oils used each fill. I hope that is not proved wrong in your tests.

As Molakule mentioned when we run virgin oil formulation tests we run the same CAT LPD in addition to the normal IR and spectro. The problem children have been the larger packaging and industrial type lubes.

Thanks again for your contributions here at BITOG !

 

[T-Keith]

I took another look at the oils, the only PCMOs I found were the Conoco 5w20(no picture) and the Mobil 10w30(picture with very little objects, no description of date, specs or source of oil.

Sorry you've come on here and told a bunch of people that they shouldn't fill their filters because they have a harmful amount of dirt in them. By doing so your implying that this is the case in the oil most people here use, and from the source they use. Your pictures and report doesn't even apply to this, so to me it's irrelevant, and IMO misleading. A lot of people don't read past the first or second post so they won't see the omissions you've added later in the thread. Seems a little irresponsible coming from a person that seems to be a professional.

Please do some testing on "real world" samples that might apply to the people your talking to. Most of us here don't use bulk HDEO.

-T

 

[Stinky Peterson]

quote:

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Originally posted by T-Keith:
I took another look at the oils, the only PCMOs I found were the Conoco 5w20(no picture) and the Mobil 10w30(picture with very little objects, no description of date, specs or source of oil.

Sorry you've come on here and told a bunch of people that they shouldn't fill their filters because they have a harmful amount of dirt in them. By doing so your implying that this is the case in the oil most people here use, and from the source they use. Your pictures and report doesn't even apply to this, so to me it's irrelevant, and IMO misleading. A lot of people don't read past the first or second post so they won't see the omissions you've added later in the thread. Seems a little irresponsible coming from a person that seems to be a professional.

Please do some testing on "real world" samples that might apply to the people your talking to. Most of us here don't use bulk HDEO.

-T

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Ok T I'll stop trying to share information, but before I do there is a couple of things I need to know. What is a PCMO? What do you mean by there is no date? Every report has a data taken and a date processed. I think every report has a brand, blend, and viscosity. I went back and found 9 reports that are not bulk oils. FYI almost all heavy duty diesel engines use 15W40, not 5W20, 15W50, etc. What do you mean by "real world testing", my lab has has processed over a million samples. We only recently started taking pictures on all the new oils so I am sorry I don't have them on everything. I thought some people would be interested in the additives and seeing the ISO code. I originally posted the pictures because I thought some would be interested in seeing what I see everyday. The rest of my messages and information was in response to questions or comments. I couldn't possibly foresee all the questions that would come up. As for no source, these are oils sent in by customers and the only information I have is what's on the label.

I originally posted the is the VOA oils thread where I thought it would be more appropriate. One of the moderators moved it here so I had no control about the audience. Oh I almost forgot, the particles showing in Mobil 10W30 are the amount in about 0.5 square millimeter of filter area, to me this is a lot.

One last thing, why don't you ask your lab to report the ISO code and furnish a picture?

 

[T-Keith]

quote:

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Originally posted by Stinky Peterson:
Ok T I'll stop trying to share information, but before I do there is a couple of things I need to know.

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Didn't say you should do that, just don't post half the info and then make a broad statement that doesn't have much to do with your info.

quote:

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What is a PCMO?

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Passenger car motor oil, in other words a 5w30 or 10w30 made for gasoline engines, the vast majority of engines on here and the title of this forum(I realize though that you didn't put it here)

quote:

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What do you mean by there is no date? Every report has a data taken and a date processed. I think every report has a brand, blend, and viscosity.

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I don't see a date of manufacture or any reference to how old this oil is. It could be a 10 year old bottle of SF oil or a bottle pumped out of some bulk tank, I don't know.

quote:

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I went back and found 9 reports that are not bulk oils. FYI almost all heavy duty diesel engines use 15W40, not 5W20, 15W50, etc.

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I see one 5w20(no picture) and one 10w30(one of the best). The really bad ones are all diesel oil or bulk oil.

quote:

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What do you mean by "real world testing", my lab has has processed over a million samples.

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Never said that, I said "real world examples" as in SM or SL 5w20-10w30 motor oil from quarts that most of us use.

quote:

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I thought some people would be interested in the additives and seeing the ISO code. I originally posted the pictures because I thought some would be interested in seeing what I see everyday. The rest of my messages and information was in response to questions or comments. I couldn't possibly foresee all the questions that would come up.

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Not true in your first post you state that because of these pictures and testing you recommend NOT filling filters as it will lead to damage. That's the problem.

quote:

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As for no source, these are oils sent in by customers and the only information I have is what's on the label.

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No problem, but that would be nice to know in the first place because this could very well be contamination from repackaging and shipping by your customers.

Sorry if I seem to be a little overbearing, but your statement seems to have a lot of holes and your not addressing them. This board is good for feedback and real discussion, that's what I'm doing.

-T

 

[jorton]

If new oil is dirty is it possible it's made from some recycled oil?

I think expensive heavy equipment and racing engines should use cleaned new oil because they're loaded and stressed more. Aircraft too.

If you are worried about the amount of dirty oil in a primed filter, then what happens with the rest of the oil that's poured in the fill hole? Is it filtered before it gets to the bearings?

The full flow oil filter sounds more important now.

 

[Stinky Peterson]

quote:

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Originally posted by T-Keith:

I don't see a date of manufacture or any reference to how old this oil is. It could be a 10 year old bottle of SF oil or a bottle pumped out of some bulk tank, I don't know.

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I didn't see this info on the other VOA's I looked at and didn't know it was required. The customers send us new oils when they get a shipment of oil or if we don't have their reference oil on file. They are all recent samples.

quote:

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I see one 5w20(no picture) and one 10w30(one of the best). The really bad ones are all diesel oil or bulk oil.

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I posted a cross section of samples, I think most are pretty bad and none of them meet specification for fill spec. This is one of the reasons I offered to do some testing for anyone who wants to send in a sample of new oil. It will either support or disprove what I am saying.

quote:

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Never said that, I said "real world examples" as in SM or SL 5w20-10w30 motor oil from quarts that most of us use.

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We are a heavy equipment dealer so that's what we see the most. I don't have pictures for most of the auto oils so I didn't post them. As I said we only recently started doing the microscope exam on new oils.

quote:

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Not true in your first post you state that because of these pictures and testing you recommend NOT filling filters as it will lead to damage. That's the problem.

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Go back and read it again T, here's what I said:

quote:

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...For this reason I do not recommend prefilling filters since anything dumped into to core of the filter gets a free ride to the engine bearings...

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I stand by this statement. I didn't say it will cause damage but I think that is a fair assumption.

quote:

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No problem, but that would be nice to know in the first place because this could very well be contamination from repackaging and shipping by your customers.

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I don't know of many labs that go out any buy new oil just for the sake of testing it. I am sure I said these were samples that our customers sent it. It's true the customers could be contaminating the samples but how do you explain finding almost no samples out of over 3000 new oils in our database that meet spec? Many of the samples were collected by our contamination control team and customers frequently send us quart/gallon containers that are upopened.

quote:

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...Sorry if I seem to be a little overbearing, but your statement seems to have a lot of holes and your not addressing them. This board is good for feedback and real discussion, that's what I'm doing.

-T

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I don't mind discussion or criticism, but I think you are attacking my credibility and data instead of just questioning it. It's almost like you have an ax to grind or something! I think I've tried to address every reasonable question or comment made.

Stinky

 

[Stinky Peterson]

quote:

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Originally posted by jordon:
If new oil is dirty is it possible it's made from some recycled oil?

I think expensive heavy equipment and racing engines should use cleaned new oil because they're loaded and stressed more. Aircraft too.

If you are worried about the amount of dirty oil in a primed filter, then what happens with the rest of the oil that's poured in the fill hole? Is it filtered before it gets to the bearings?

The full flow oil filter sounds more important now.

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I agree with you Jordon but I think most of the recycling processes are pretty good. We believe the oil starts out clean at the refinery and then progressively get dirtier until it reaches the end user. Yesterday I visited with one of the contamination gurus and he told me that one petroleum company received uncapped bottles and thats the way they were stored until they we filled. It's no wonder we see some much contamination! I wish I could somehow share a movie I recently saw about the Bill Davis Nascar team and how they address contamination. It's amazing the pains they go to to keep things clean.

Oil that get poured into the center of the filter does not get filterd until it is pumped through the engine. The flow is from the outside of the paper to the inside.

Stinky

[ December 10, 2004, 01:44 AM: Message edited by: Stinky Peterson ]

 

[cheeks]

quote:

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Pretty soon ...some one here is going to have a "white room" for oil storage and transfer ..within which ..the "shrine" will be contained. Naturally this will include positive air pressure (filtered and electrostatically clensed) ..a decon area ..air locks ...autoclave ..Pyrex beakers ...inductive stirrers.

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Genius

 

[Amkeer]

Stinky,

Don't get bothered by some of the posters here. Keep up the good work.

 

[T-Keith]

quote:

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Originally posted by Stinky Peterson:
I don't mind discussion or criticism, but I think you are attacking my credibility and data instead of just questioning it. It's almost like you have an ax to grind or something! I think I've tried to address every reasonable question or comment made.

Stinky

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No Ax to grind, I actually like the testing and pictures keep them coming. I just think your making a huge leap in your "recommendation" considering the information you've posted.

Yes a Good VOA has at least the specification listed, SL, SM, ect. Otherwise it doesn't help us much.

-T

 

[labman]

Took me a while to find it, but I remembered this thread,
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004262#000000. I don't like the oil companies answers, especially the calcium carbonate, ROCKS!. Both the limestone and emulsions usually are light colored. The Pennzoil I added to my Cavalier last night had the usual dark brown or black stuff along with some lighter stuff. Hey JohnneyO, how about a good answer from somebody we trust that knows?

Stuff big enough to see is huge.

 

[rgl]

Everyone that is reconsidering prefilling, please remember that a very large percentage of cars have the oil filler cap right on the top of the engine and in that case you will be putting 3-5 quarts into the engine unfitered regardless.

 

[TheFuror]

quote:

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Originally posted by rgl:
Everyone that is reconsidering prefilling, please remember that a very large percentage of cars have the oil filler cap right on the top of the engine and in that case you will be putting 3-5 quarts into the engine unfitered regardless.

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Don't you just hate when someone employs sound logic around here?

Good post.

Bob W.

 

[Stinky Peterson]

quote:

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Originally posted by TheFuror:

Originally posted by rgl:
[qb] Everyone that is reconsidering prefilling, please remember that a very large percentage of cars have the oil filler cap right on the top of the engine and in that case you will be putting 3-5 quarts into the engine unfitered regardless.

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That's true but it goes through the filter before it get pumped through the engine.

 

[Stinky Peterson]

quote:

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Originally posted by T-Keith:
No Ax to grind, I actually like the testing and pictures keep them coming. I just think your making a huge leap in your "recommendation" considering the information you've posted.

Yes a Good VOA has at least the specification listed, SL, SM, ect. Otherwise it doesn't help us much.

-T [/QB]

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I'll try to post that information if I can get it easily.

 

[widman]

This is why some people prefilter. I have some customers who connect their filter to the drum on delivery and filter the new oil while it is being pumped into overhead storage tanks from where it flows directly to the engines.

 

[windcatcher]

Stinky you dont have to defend yourself to t-keith the point is, there are new oils that are delivered contaminated as per visual evidence. The problem is, is the oil I use contaminated and if it is how can i keep from using it. It might be a good idea to write the oil companies and ask. Thanks for bringing this problem to my attention. Mike

 

[Stinky Peterson]

I know this is primarily a gasoline engine thread and that this link is for a CH-4/SI oil but in case anyone is interested here is a report we ran today on Cat's synthetic 5W40 which is blended by Mobil.

Cat DEO-Syn 5W40


This came from a one gallon jug that I opened myself and I took 2 samples just to verify the results. It's one of the cleanest one's I've seen recently. I got another new sample today from one of the members on this group that was very clean too and with his permission I will post those results later on.


Stinky

PS - with this report I'm not doing very good at supporting my argument, but hey - I calls em as I sees em!

 

[Terry]

"Stinky" I wonder how many of the mysterious odd soft metals bumps we see are caused by this issue in perfectly wearing engines? Usually bearing microscoring.

 

[Stinky Peterson]

You mean sumptin like these little buggers Terry?

Spherical Paricles
Spheres 1

Tell me these aren't neat!

Stinky