During high speed blasts you have another quart to absorb heat delta t from 180 to 280. You know just like a bigger brake rotor is better than a small thin one.
Do we need a thermo rewiew?
Do we need a thermo rewiew?
overfilled is overhyped
- Thread starter Merkava_4
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If you wait until you're a quart low to add, you are at a 50% heat capacity disadvantage rather than running a quart over.
My corvette's aftermarket dipstick showed a quart high which probably caused accelerated ageing of the engine.
Why do you think beamers, mercs, and other hi po cars have the 8 quart sumps?
My corvette's aftermarket dipstick showed a quart high which probably caused accelerated ageing of the engine.
Why do you think beamers, mercs, and other hi po cars have the 8 quart sumps?
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
During high speed blasts you have another quart to absorb heat delta t from 180 to 280. You know just like a bigger brake rotor is better than a small thin one.
Do we need a thermo rewiew?
OK, in your situation (I would say hypothetical, but the turtle only uses facts and data), as you'd be aware, the convective heat transfer due to the temperature rise is 35% higher...and it keeps doing it whilever the heat is there.
Your "heat sink" is a one off 20% increase in thermal capacity, as I pointed out...if it took a minute for that temperature rise on 5 quarts, it's 70 seconds on 6...
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
My corvette's aftermarket dipstick showed a quart high which probably caused accelerated ageing of the engine.
Why do you think beamers, mercs, and other hi po cars have the 8 quart sumps?
Clearly, a couple of seconds extra to reach your equilibrium temperature isn't going to shorten your engine life...remember it's your argument.
What WILL happen is 20% less trips through the ring belt over an OCI, I'll conceded that, more "tbn" "active volume" during an OCI.
As to Europeans big sumps...you don't think high speed, long OCIs, and the possibility of oil consumption is a factor ?
GM did, because they increased the sump size on the 3.8 in Oz shortly after introduction...because they were running out of oil between OCIs.
As to foaming, get the oil into interaction with the spinny bits due to overfilling, and yes it will foam...those additives you speak of are older than your vette.
Here's why you don't overfill, this test rig designed to simulate the g forces during "spirited" driving...imagine where that extra quart of oil fits under 1g transversely ?...
During high speed blasts you have another quart to absorb heat delta t from 180 to 280. You know just like a bigger brake rotor is better than a small thin one.
Do we need a thermo rewiew?
OK, in your situation (I would say hypothetical, but the turtle only uses facts and data), as you'd be aware, the convective heat transfer due to the temperature rise is 35% higher...and it keeps doing it whilever the heat is there.
Your "heat sink" is a one off 20% increase in thermal capacity, as I pointed out...if it took a minute for that temperature rise on 5 quarts, it's 70 seconds on 6...
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
My corvette's aftermarket dipstick showed a quart high which probably caused accelerated ageing of the engine.
Why do you think beamers, mercs, and other hi po cars have the 8 quart sumps?
Clearly, a couple of seconds extra to reach your equilibrium temperature isn't going to shorten your engine life...remember it's your argument.
What WILL happen is 20% less trips through the ring belt over an OCI, I'll conceded that, more "tbn" "active volume" during an OCI.
As to Europeans big sumps...you don't think high speed, long OCIs, and the possibility of oil consumption is a factor ?
GM did, because they increased the sump size on the 3.8 in Oz shortly after introduction...because they were running out of oil between OCIs.
As to foaming, get the oil into interaction with the spinny bits due to overfilling, and yes it will foam...those additives you speak of are older than your vette.
Here's why you don't overfill, this test rig designed to simulate the g forces during "spirited" driving...imagine where that extra quart of oil fits under 1g transversely ?...
Well I guess it's amazing my old beater F-150 can even run after I got it with no more than a quart of oil in the pan... When I drained it wasn't much more than a good splash in the pan and drain was down to the the size of a string(I was truly shocked and for me that ain't often)... Now 2½ years later it still runs fine and I haven't given it a easy life, though have kept oil in it... It's qt plus low now, but is due for change... Most all passenger car car 5.0 had 5 qt sumps the truck is 6 so still has as much as a 5.0 Mustang. T-Bird, Grand Marquis etc did when full...
Originally Posted By: LubeLuke
Merkava is a known troll on other forums. Just leave him be.
It's about all you can expect from an internet warrior who averages over 1000 posts a year on this forum alone. Obviously spends more time inside on the computer than in the real world.
And that's why he's getting such poor gas mileage.
Merkava is a known troll on other forums. Just leave him be.
It's about all you can expect from an internet warrior who averages over 1000 posts a year on this forum alone. Obviously spends more time inside on the computer than in the real world.
And that's why he's getting such poor gas mileage.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Here's why you don't overfill, this test rig designed to simulate the g forces during "spirited" driving...imagine where that extra quart of oil fits under 1g transversely ?...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv53RbvgfGc
We've discussed this before and most/all of the racers here will overfill. You can further research it on any performance car forum.
Here's why you don't overfill, this test rig designed to simulate the g forces during "spirited" driving...imagine where that extra quart of oil fits under 1g transversely ?...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv53RbvgfGc
We've discussed this before and most/all of the racers here will overfill. You can further research it on any performance car forum.
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If your car has a lot of blow by and you overfill... holy cow, it's gonna smoke more than in jamaica
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
You can further research it on any performance car forum.
Why would I look on a performance car forum, when the discussion is here.
And you've so kindly offered some education in thermodynamics.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Do we need a thermo rewiew?
Your offer is still open isn't it ?
Please proceed.
You can further research it on any performance car forum.
Why would I look on a performance car forum, when the discussion is here.
And you've so kindly offered some education in thermodynamics.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Do we need a thermo rewiew?
Your offer is still open isn't it ?
Please proceed.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
You can further research it on any performance car forum.
Why would I look on a performance car forum, when the discussion is here.
And you've so kindly offered some education in thermodynamics.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Do we need a thermo rewiew?
Your offer is still open isn't it ?
Please proceed.
Haven't I embarrassed you enough over the past few years? You're understanding the heat capacity issue but underestimating the impact by about an order of magnitude. And do you really think the oil will froth all the way to the bottom of the pan?
You lack a certain mechanical aptitude most probably because you have not been involved with the automotive hobby. I had to school you on your lifters, oil pump functionality, and a few other things. If you had been more involved in racing and engines that would not have happened.
But you are really good at posting others work here. Once I see a published paper with your name on it, you'll get more respect from me.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
You can further research it on any performance car forum.
Why would I look on a performance car forum, when the discussion is here.
And you've so kindly offered some education in thermodynamics.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Do we need a thermo rewiew?
Your offer is still open isn't it ?
Please proceed.
Haven't I embarrassed you enough over the past few years? You're understanding the heat capacity issue but underestimating the impact by about an order of magnitude. And do you really think the oil will froth all the way to the bottom of the pan?
You lack a certain mechanical aptitude most probably because you have not been involved with the automotive hobby. I had to school you on your lifters, oil pump functionality, and a few other things. If you had been more involved in racing and engines that would not have happened.
But you are really good at posting others work here. Once I see a published paper with your name on it, you'll get more respect from me.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Haven't I embarrassed you enough over the past few years? You're understanding the heat capacity issue but underestimating the impact by about an order of magnitude. And do you really think the oil will froth all the way to the bottom of the pan?
You lack a certain mechanical aptitude most probably because you have not been involved with the automotive hobby. I had to school you on your lifters, oil pump functionality, and a few other things. If you had been more involved in racing and engines that would not have happened.
But you are really good at posting others work here. Once I see a published paper with your name on it, you'll get more respect from me.
Oh well, guess you'd better just drive the final nail home with your thermo lessons.
On with it.
Haven't I embarrassed you enough over the past few years? You're understanding the heat capacity issue but underestimating the impact by about an order of magnitude. And do you really think the oil will froth all the way to the bottom of the pan?
You lack a certain mechanical aptitude most probably because you have not been involved with the automotive hobby. I had to school you on your lifters, oil pump functionality, and a few other things. If you had been more involved in racing and engines that would not have happened.
But you are really good at posting others work here. Once I see a published paper with your name on it, you'll get more respect from me.
Oh well, guess you'd better just drive the final nail home with your thermo lessons.
On with it.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Haven't I embarrassed you enough over the past few years? You're understanding the heat capacity issue but underestimating the impact by about an order of magnitude. And do you really think the oil will froth all the way to the bottom of the pan?
You lack a certain mechanical aptitude most probably because you have not been involved with the automotive hobby. I had to school you on your lifters, oil pump functionality, and a few other things. If you had been more involved in racing and engines that would not have happened.
But you are really good at posting others work here. Once I see a published paper with your name on it, you'll get more respect from me.
Oh well, guess you'd better just drive the final nail home with your thermo lessons.
On with it.
When he's through with that he can tell us how to stuff a shirt.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Haven't I embarrassed you enough over the past few years? You're understanding the heat capacity issue but underestimating the impact by about an order of magnitude. And do you really think the oil will froth all the way to the bottom of the pan?
You lack a certain mechanical aptitude most probably because you have not been involved with the automotive hobby. I had to school you on your lifters, oil pump functionality, and a few other things. If you had been more involved in racing and engines that would not have happened.
But you are really good at posting others work here. Once I see a published paper with your name on it, you'll get more respect from me.
Oh well, guess you'd better just drive the final nail home with your thermo lessons.
On with it.
When he's through with that he can tell us how to stuff a shirt.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Haven't I embarrassed you enough over the past few years? You're understanding the heat capacity issue but underestimating the impact by about an order of magnitude. And do you really think the oil will froth all the way to the bottom of the pan?
You lack a certain mechanical aptitude most probably because you have not been involved with the automotive hobby. I had to school you on your lifters, oil pump functionality, and a few other things. If you had been more involved in racing and engines that would not have happened.
But you are really good at posting others work here. Once I see a published paper with your name on it, you'll get more respect from me.
I know that you've embarrassed yourself enough even just over the past few months.
turtlevette, I'm sure you do have great knowledge and experience. I'm sure you know a lot about what you're talking about...
But where I doubt you is your integrity. No offense. But you know as well as any other respectable member here that the bar for one's maturity, integrity, and ego raises to a higher standard when you prove to be one of the most well known, well studied, and well versed of users on BITOG.
Now I know y'all have disagreements between each other. I know some of my examples here of users that I'm about to list will have people who don't always "click." But you should understand the shoes of the person this is coming from, and how I see you.
(Obviously this is totally non-exhaustive, and there's going to be some users I don't list. But I'm doing this for a reason.)
Here's some user's I've always personally felt to be a little higher on the pedestal, in my mind.
Clevy, Garak, Overkill, wemay, Caterham... (various others)... and then:
Shannow, and you as well, turtlevette.
Why? Because I can tell by the tone of all your posts, by the information you all provide, by the rational, logical debates, and by the integrity of your manners here.
But turtlevette, I've seen more than enough times where you cross the lines of integrity, respectfulness, and maturity.
...
You know that you just pulled a d!ck move in that reply to Shannow. And it doesn't even matter to what extent you are telling the truth or not - I'm not saying I don't believe you have given such help to Shannow; I'm saying I don't know, and that either way it doesn't matter.
Because you need to start posting more maturely if you want others to feel that it is worth replying to you.
---
I say that with all due respect. Because I care.
And yeah, sure. I'm not a big name here at all. And yeah, sure. I'm still young; still a naive college student whose got a lot to learn yet. But I know one thing for sure:
I know who I can take seriously here on BITOG. I know who I can trust to give legitimate information. I know who I should be able to believe.
It doesn't bother me to see bickering from, ehem, "those" kinds of folks here. It doesn't bother me to see stubbornness and comedy from certain folks, either.
But if I know you like I think I do, I know you'd prefer it if you knew people somewhat looked up to you, even if not as much as a few others, because you want that kind of credentials, that kind of rep.
You won't get that if you post stuff like what I've quoted above from you.
~ Triton
Haven't I embarrassed you enough over the past few years? You're understanding the heat capacity issue but underestimating the impact by about an order of magnitude. And do you really think the oil will froth all the way to the bottom of the pan?
You lack a certain mechanical aptitude most probably because you have not been involved with the automotive hobby. I had to school you on your lifters, oil pump functionality, and a few other things. If you had been more involved in racing and engines that would not have happened.
But you are really good at posting others work here. Once I see a published paper with your name on it, you'll get more respect from me.
I know that you've embarrassed yourself enough even just over the past few months.
turtlevette, I'm sure you do have great knowledge and experience. I'm sure you know a lot about what you're talking about...
But where I doubt you is your integrity. No offense. But you know as well as any other respectable member here that the bar for one's maturity, integrity, and ego raises to a higher standard when you prove to be one of the most well known, well studied, and well versed of users on BITOG.
Now I know y'all have disagreements between each other. I know some of my examples here of users that I'm about to list will have people who don't always "click." But you should understand the shoes of the person this is coming from, and how I see you.
(Obviously this is totally non-exhaustive, and there's going to be some users I don't list. But I'm doing this for a reason.)
Here's some user's I've always personally felt to be a little higher on the pedestal, in my mind.
Clevy, Garak, Overkill, wemay, Caterham... (various others)... and then:
Shannow, and you as well, turtlevette.
Why? Because I can tell by the tone of all your posts, by the information you all provide, by the rational, logical debates, and by the integrity of your manners here.
But turtlevette, I've seen more than enough times where you cross the lines of integrity, respectfulness, and maturity.
...
You know that you just pulled a d!ck move in that reply to Shannow. And it doesn't even matter to what extent you are telling the truth or not - I'm not saying I don't believe you have given such help to Shannow; I'm saying I don't know, and that either way it doesn't matter.
Because you need to start posting more maturely if you want others to feel that it is worth replying to you.
---
I say that with all due respect. Because I care.
And yeah, sure. I'm not a big name here at all. And yeah, sure. I'm still young; still a naive college student whose got a lot to learn yet. But I know one thing for sure:
I know who I can take seriously here on BITOG. I know who I can trust to give legitimate information. I know who I should be able to believe.
It doesn't bother me to see bickering from, ehem, "those" kinds of folks here. It doesn't bother me to see stubbornness and comedy from certain folks, either.
But if I know you like I think I do, I know you'd prefer it if you knew people somewhat looked up to you, even if not as much as a few others, because you want that kind of credentials, that kind of rep.
You won't get that if you post stuff like what I've quoted above from you.
~ Triton
Wow... That was very, very, well stated Triton. You may be a young man but you have insight and wisdom WELL beyond your years..
I agree with your list by the way too
Turtlevette I agree with Triton that you are very smart, experienced, and add much to any discussion you participate in. Just keep it above board and you will be good
I know this is what I need to do too. I am human and have made the exact same mistake with this has well. So I am not trying to preach to you at all. We are on level ground on this one I promise. Has I type this ... It is a good reminder for me too. To do things in the better way, to be good to others even when I disagree with them, and even not to be nasty to those who I perceive who have been nasty to me.
I enjoy reading your posts on here and learn some good stuff from you.. So keep on, rock on, and be cool even when the debate gets a little hot.
I agree with your list by the way too
Turtlevette I agree with Triton that you are very smart, experienced, and add much to any discussion you participate in. Just keep it above board and you will be good
I know this is what I need to do too. I am human and have made the exact same mistake with this has well. So I am not trying to preach to you at all. We are on level ground on this one I promise. Has I type this ... It is a good reminder for me too. To do things in the better way, to be good to others even when I disagree with them, and even not to be nasty to those who I perceive who have been nasty to me.
I enjoy reading your posts on here and learn some good stuff from you.. So keep on, rock on, and be cool even when the debate gets a little hot.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
An extra quart provides extra heat sink. I don't think oil froths anymore. They put in additives to prevent that.
The siloxane polymers only makes the bubbles burst quicker, they do not prevent the oil from frothing due to overfilling.
Air does not lubricate.
The oil will finally come to an equilibrium temperature, whether it is 4 quarts or 10 quarts.
An extra quart provides extra heat sink. I don't think oil froths anymore. They put in additives to prevent that.
The siloxane polymers only makes the bubbles burst quicker, they do not prevent the oil from frothing due to overfilling.
Air does not lubricate.
The oil will finally come to an equilibrium temperature, whether it is 4 quarts or 10 quarts.
Originally Posted By: bbhero
Wow... That was very, very, well stated Triton. You may be a young man but you have insight and wisdom WELL beyond your years..
I agree with your list by the way too
Thank you, bbhero. (I should have remembered to put MolaKule in my list there, too.)
I've always had a passion for vehicles since I was a wee little toddler. My dad is a gearhead, and that was a major part of why I became one. My parents have had that Camaro new since '89, (I was born in '94). So I gained an affinity for cars because of that. But what really put the cherry on top was that my dad used to have a 1979 Ford Bronco. Had a 351 bored forty over, and other misc mods. I loved that thing. We called it "Big Red." But anyway, I grew up with both Fords and Chevys, and at one time mom had a Jeep, too.
I'm a computer science major, but being a gearhead is like my ultimate hobby. So when I found BITOG, around the summer of 2013, I lurked for half a year, just reading now and again, until I finally realized I had become hooked with the subject of oil. I joined that winter, and since then I have learned a great deal about engine lubrication and filtration just by being a member here. I tend to only post where I feel comfortable enough in my knowledge and/or experience; or I have a question. Of course, it didn't take long to realize who were the most valuable and knowledgeable users here.
I enjoy being able to participate in this community. It's a good mix of casual and formal; I try to give the benefit of the doubt when I'm unsure of others' intentions. But when I know for certain that someone with a valued reputation is letting their worst get the best of themselves, I guess my philosophical side starts to show.
My response to turtlevette was essentially an extended way of saying, "I know you're better than that, so don't stoop to that level."
---
Back on topic:
As to help guide the OP into further discussion, I think that with the information we've gotten so far from various members, the question should be altered.
Here's some possible questions to consider for further discussion:
What are the differences in the rules about overfilling between multiple vehicles?
Do engines that are designed from the factory with racing in mind have less of a chance of frothing due to overfill as compared to the average grocery getter?
How much overfill is acceptable? How much frothing is acceptable? At what point does the amount of overfill or frothing change from an acceptable amount to a harmful amount?
If frothing isn't as much of an issue now due to new additives, what other types of harm could come from too much overfill?
Those are just some generic questions.
My own personal question is this:
Despite possible variations in answers for those questions between one vehicle and another, is there a set "safe maximum" of overfill for all vehicles - possibly half a quart?
~ Triton
Wow... That was very, very, well stated Triton. You may be a young man but you have insight and wisdom WELL beyond your years..
I agree with your list by the way too
Thank you, bbhero. (I should have remembered to put MolaKule in my list there, too.)
I've always had a passion for vehicles since I was a wee little toddler. My dad is a gearhead, and that was a major part of why I became one. My parents have had that Camaro new since '89, (I was born in '94). So I gained an affinity for cars because of that. But what really put the cherry on top was that my dad used to have a 1979 Ford Bronco. Had a 351 bored forty over, and other misc mods. I loved that thing. We called it "Big Red." But anyway, I grew up with both Fords and Chevys, and at one time mom had a Jeep, too.
I'm a computer science major, but being a gearhead is like my ultimate hobby. So when I found BITOG, around the summer of 2013, I lurked for half a year, just reading now and again, until I finally realized I had become hooked with the subject of oil. I joined that winter, and since then I have learned a great deal about engine lubrication and filtration just by being a member here. I tend to only post where I feel comfortable enough in my knowledge and/or experience; or I have a question. Of course, it didn't take long to realize who were the most valuable and knowledgeable users here.
I enjoy being able to participate in this community. It's a good mix of casual and formal; I try to give the benefit of the doubt when I'm unsure of others' intentions. But when I know for certain that someone with a valued reputation is letting their worst get the best of themselves, I guess my philosophical side starts to show.
My response to turtlevette was essentially an extended way of saying, "I know you're better than that, so don't stoop to that level."
---
Back on topic:
As to help guide the OP into further discussion, I think that with the information we've gotten so far from various members, the question
Here's some possible questions to consider for further discussion:
What are the differences in the rules about overfilling between multiple vehicles?
Do engines that are designed from the factory with racing in mind have less of a chance of frothing due to overfill as compared to the average grocery getter?
How much overfill is acceptable? How much frothing is acceptable? At what point does the amount of overfill or frothing change from an acceptable amount to a harmful amount?
If frothing isn't as much of an issue now due to new additives, what other types of harm could come from too much overfill?
Those are just some generic questions.
My own personal question is this:
Despite possible variations in answers for those questions between one vehicle and another, is there a set "safe maximum" of overfill for all vehicles - possibly half a quart?
~ Triton
There are cars that more prone to overfilling and cars that are not really that easy to overfill.
Just as an example, the twin turbo BMW N63 engine had some high oil consumption issues and BMW released a new service procedure where the engine HAD to be overfilled with 1QT of oil without any modifications on the engine!
Just as an example, the twin turbo BMW N63 engine had some high oil consumption issues and BMW released a new service procedure where the engine HAD to be overfilled with 1QT of oil without any modifications on the engine!
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Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
I just had me a brilliant idea:
I could go rent me a 2015 Honda Accord - drive it home - put it up on Rhino Ramps - drain all the 0W-20 out of it - fill it up with 6 quarts of 10w30 - drive it around see if it blows up!
Go big or go home! 20w-50 all the way!
I just had me a brilliant idea:
I could go rent me a 2015 Honda Accord - drive it home - put it up on Rhino Ramps - drain all the 0W-20 out of it - fill it up with 6 quarts of 10w30 - drive it around see if it blows up!
Go big or go home! 20w-50 all the way!
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
I think it is. My Buick 3800 has 5 holes on the dipstick between the ADD line and the FULL line. The other day, only 4 holes were covered up with oil. So mathematically, I'd have to add 6.4 ounces to get the 5th hole covered up. The heck with that, in a another full quart it went. So now I'm probably a little less than a full quart overfilled. I've noticed NO difference in the way the car acts. Fuel mileage is the exact same 18.7mpg that it's always been.
Acceleration is the same as before too. No sluggishness to report. The only difference is maybe a slight improvement in smoothness, but I don't see how an extra quart is gonna do that. Most guys would just simply wait until the oil is down to the ADD line before adding the other quart, but I can't do that. I gotta have plenty of oil in the engine for piece of mind.
I don't think the Buick engine is the only engine out there unaffected by the extra quart. I think there's plenty of other engines out there that would be unaffected too. Maybe even some of those fragile Hondas.
Another Buick 3800 owner here. I consistently overfill on my oil changes on mine because of the oil pan gasket leak. It calls for 4.5qts and I throw in 5 all day every day.
I think it is. My Buick 3800 has 5 holes on the dipstick between the ADD line and the FULL line. The other day, only 4 holes were covered up with oil. So mathematically, I'd have to add 6.4 ounces to get the 5th hole covered up. The heck with that, in a another full quart it went. So now I'm probably a little less than a full quart overfilled. I've noticed NO difference in the way the car acts. Fuel mileage is the exact same 18.7mpg that it's always been.
Acceleration is the same as before too. No sluggishness to report. The only difference is maybe a slight improvement in smoothness, but I don't see how an extra quart is gonna do that. Most guys would just simply wait until the oil is down to the ADD line before adding the other quart, but I can't do that. I gotta have plenty of oil in the engine for piece of mind.
I don't think the Buick engine is the only engine out there unaffected by the extra quart. I think there's plenty of other engines out there that would be unaffected too. Maybe even some of those fragile Hondas.
Another Buick 3800 owner here. I consistently overfill on my oil changes on mine because of the oil pan gasket leak. It calls for 4.5qts and I throw in 5 all day every day.
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