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And something I cannot understand is how people who can develop Linux operating systems can't seem to develop drivers for printers and scanners. I waited years for such software to be developed. Those wizards in the magical forest need to demonstrate how good they really are.
If a computer O/S can't get the job done for people, then nobody will buy that O/S.
If a computer O/S can't get the job done for people, then nobody will buy that O/S.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Mystic
And something I cannot understand is how people who can develop Linux operating systems can't seem to develop drivers for printers and scanners. I waited years for such software to be developed. Those wizards in the magical forest need to demonstrate how good they really are.
If a computer O/S can't get the job done for people, then nobody will buy that O/S.
It is more a lack of support by the companies who develop those devices actually. Companies like ATI, NVidia, Intel, SUN, even HP, have gone out of their way to work on drivers for Open Source operating systems. Vendors for imaging devices rarely make that effort.
And something I cannot understand is how people who can develop Linux operating systems can't seem to develop drivers for printers and scanners. I waited years for such software to be developed. Those wizards in the magical forest need to demonstrate how good they really are.
If a computer O/S can't get the job done for people, then nobody will buy that O/S.
It is more a lack of support by the companies who develop those devices actually. Companies like ATI, NVidia, Intel, SUN, even HP, have gone out of their way to work on drivers for Open Source operating systems. Vendors for imaging devices rarely make that effort.
Actually OVERKILL that is Unix magic. There is magic in Unix. There is no magic in Linux. There is magic in FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, and Mac OS X (which I guess could kind of be considered a version of FreeBSD). People built great Unix servers. I still remember the first computers we had. I think one of them cost $500,000.00. Now there are Linux servers but they came after the great Unix computers.
If there really was any Linux magic Microsoft would be in trouble.
If there really was any Linux magic Microsoft would be in trouble.
Can you imagine how well Linux computers might sell (desktop computers) if there really was better software and hardware support? Expecting the companies that develop imaging devices to develop drivers for printers and scanners for Linux O/Ss is a waste of time. Unless and until Linux became more popular such drivers would never be developed. And Linux will not become more popular unless and until there is better software and hardware support. It is an endless circle.
If there are any great people in Linux they have to make the move. Get out of the circle and advance. It never happens.
And therefore people will continue to use Windows. It does not matter what anybody might think of Windows. As long as Windows enables people to do what they need to do, with great software and hardware support, people will continue to use Windows.
If there are any great people in Linux they have to make the move. Get out of the circle and advance. It never happens.
And therefore people will continue to use Windows. It does not matter what anybody might think of Windows. As long as Windows enables people to do what they need to do, with great software and hardware support, people will continue to use Windows.
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Originally Posted By: Mystic
Let me give just one example. It is unbelievable that businesses and governmental agencies would continue to buy computers with Windows installed if all they did was then have Windows removed and some version of Linux installed. Why continue to waste money buying copies of Windows? The businesses and governmental agencies would have their computers custom built with Linux installed. It would be in the news. People could interview top executatives at various companies and quotes could be obtained from CEOs. HP and DEll would start making personal computers with Linux installed.
For one, in Canada, the federal government is looking at using open source software, including open source operating systems. For departments that have hundreds, or even thousands, of computers, the licensing costs are astronomical. There are some government employees who simply cannot even get MS Office on their workstations because the budget doesn't allow for it.
In the Canadian federal government, mission critical computers simply do not run Windows. They run DOS. It is secure and stable, and that's what mission critical systems need. Almsot all of the federal governments private and essential internal communications are routed through old 486 systems running DOS.
Why? Because if the power goes out and the UPS runs out of gas, the system will reboot itself, without freaking out that the hard drive must be scanned after an improper shutdown, and it will reboot itself, run its batch file, and get straight back to work, without requiring a user login, or failing along the way. There won't be a BSOD, either. Microsoft has and can create quality, working products. They just seem to have forgotten how.
As has been pointed out in many satirical (and serious) articles, if our cars and airplanes failed as often as our computers' operating systems did, we'd burn Boeing, the Big Three, and anyone else involved to the ground. When I ran Windows, my computer crashed far more than my car failed. On Linux, it's the other way around. The computer simply doesn't crash.
As for HP and Dell with respect to Linux, I suggest you check out their websites. I do know that Dell sells computers preloaded with Linux. I'm not sure if HP does, but I do know that they offer phenomenal Linux support for their printers, scanners, and the like.
If people want to use Windows, fine, go ahead. Send Microsoft all your money, for all I care. However, don't think it's the only way to do things, or even the only effective or reasonable way to do things. Also, don't think that vendors don't support open source. HP, for example, is basically a hardware company. They want me to buy their hardware. They don't care whether I'm using Windows, Apple's OS, Linux, DOS, AmigaOS, or BSD. As long as I buy their product, they're quite happy with that. They supply drivers for various operating systems, because they know that Windows isn't the only way to do things. Many vendors operate differently, but that's at their own peril.
Statistics with respect to Windows usage really are irrelevant. Linux doesn't compete with Windows, per se, since most Linux distributions are free. Microsoft needs the market share. The FOSS community does not. The Linux distributions that are not free tend to have a different target market than Windows does.
Again, with respect to statistics, computer use tends to be a very personal experience. I don't care if 99.9% of the populace uses Windows. I use Linux. I do everything on Linux that I used to do on Windows, and more. The gaming side isn't there yet; however, I like flight simulators, and the Linux offerings are every bit as good as the Windows offerings in that market.
I do all that I need and all that I want with Linux and open source software in general. I only had to pay for my hardware. The software was all free. Not a penny went to Bill Gates or his competitors.
With respect to fantastic claims, remember that the Linux people generally aren't trying to sell you anything. If you believe a fantastic claim, you certainly aren't out anything. If Microsoft makes a fantastic claim, they do so because they want your money. Vista seemed to make many fantastic claims. So did ME. How did that go?
Let me give just one example. It is unbelievable that businesses and governmental agencies would continue to buy computers with Windows installed if all they did was then have Windows removed and some version of Linux installed. Why continue to waste money buying copies of Windows? The businesses and governmental agencies would have their computers custom built with Linux installed. It would be in the news. People could interview top executatives at various companies and quotes could be obtained from CEOs. HP and DEll would start making personal computers with Linux installed.
For one, in Canada, the federal government is looking at using open source software, including open source operating systems. For departments that have hundreds, or even thousands, of computers, the licensing costs are astronomical. There are some government employees who simply cannot even get MS Office on their workstations because the budget doesn't allow for it.
In the Canadian federal government, mission critical computers simply do not run Windows. They run DOS. It is secure and stable, and that's what mission critical systems need. Almsot all of the federal governments private and essential internal communications are routed through old 486 systems running DOS.
Why? Because if the power goes out and the UPS runs out of gas, the system will reboot itself, without freaking out that the hard drive must be scanned after an improper shutdown, and it will reboot itself, run its batch file, and get straight back to work, without requiring a user login, or failing along the way. There won't be a BSOD, either. Microsoft has and can create quality, working products. They just seem to have forgotten how.
As has been pointed out in many satirical (and serious) articles, if our cars and airplanes failed as often as our computers' operating systems did, we'd burn Boeing, the Big Three, and anyone else involved to the ground. When I ran Windows, my computer crashed far more than my car failed. On Linux, it's the other way around. The computer simply doesn't crash.
As for HP and Dell with respect to Linux, I suggest you check out their websites. I do know that Dell sells computers preloaded with Linux. I'm not sure if HP does, but I do know that they offer phenomenal Linux support for their printers, scanners, and the like.
If people want to use Windows, fine, go ahead. Send Microsoft all your money, for all I care. However, don't think it's the only way to do things, or even the only effective or reasonable way to do things. Also, don't think that vendors don't support open source. HP, for example, is basically a hardware company. They want me to buy their hardware. They don't care whether I'm using Windows, Apple's OS, Linux, DOS, AmigaOS, or BSD. As long as I buy their product, they're quite happy with that. They supply drivers for various operating systems, because they know that Windows isn't the only way to do things. Many vendors operate differently, but that's at their own peril.
Statistics with respect to Windows usage really are irrelevant. Linux doesn't compete with Windows, per se, since most Linux distributions are free. Microsoft needs the market share. The FOSS community does not. The Linux distributions that are not free tend to have a different target market than Windows does.
Again, with respect to statistics, computer use tends to be a very personal experience. I don't care if 99.9% of the populace uses Windows. I use Linux. I do everything on Linux that I used to do on Windows, and more. The gaming side isn't there yet; however, I like flight simulators, and the Linux offerings are every bit as good as the Windows offerings in that market.
I do all that I need and all that I want with Linux and open source software in general. I only had to pay for my hardware. The software was all free. Not a penny went to Bill Gates or his competitors.
With respect to fantastic claims, remember that the Linux people generally aren't trying to sell you anything. If you believe a fantastic claim, you certainly aren't out anything. If Microsoft makes a fantastic claim, they do so because they want your money. Vista seemed to make many fantastic claims. So did ME. How did that go?
Windows users I shown Ubuntu:5
People wanting me to load Ubuntu:5
People I've shown MacOS X:5
People who have purchased Macs:5
I suspect these ratios would easily extend across W7 users.
The W7 sales figures are for people who have to use it (business) or don't know a reasonable alternative.
It is clear you haven't used linux since about 1999, since your criticisms had more weight 11 years ago.
People wanting me to load Ubuntu:5
People I've shown MacOS X:5
People who have purchased Macs:5
I suspect these ratios would easily extend across W7 users.
The W7 sales figures are for people who have to use it (business) or don't know a reasonable alternative.
It is clear you haven't used linux since about 1999, since your criticisms had more weight 11 years ago.
As a business owner W7 has worked fine and was worth the $$. I don't have the time to mess with Linux. Microsoft delivered a good product and people are buying it. I can't think of a single reason to use anything else.
As a private individual i have had GREAT luck with Microsoft enjoy using it and no plans on switching, and yes i've used other systems.
I'll be using both Windows and and Ubuntu for the foreseeable future. Windows is too necessary to ignore, but I like Ubuntu just as much or more than Windows. One thing I won't due is run out and buy the newest Windows available. I'll use what I have (1 with XP, 1 with Vista) until work requirements or hardware failure force me to change. I can certainly wait until 8 comes out, maybe even 9.
Originally Posted By: Mystic
One of the big myths about Linux that some people like to spread is that Linux software is free and that mysterious people throughout the world develop software for Linux just to server their fellow man.
Mystic, buddy, you are getting *way* bent out of shape about this.
Debian is exactly the type of "myth" you describe here, and you are obviously a mile away from understanding how free, open source software *can, if you choose* be capitalized upon to make money supporting (*Supporting, NOT SELLING*). Canonical sells support for their Debian-based OS, Ubuntu. Red Hat sells support for their own Linux, but offers Fedora at no cost, and allows CentOS to re-complie their ENTIRE OS and distribute FOR FREE. Same with Novell and SUSE/ openSUSE. Others do NOT make money on their Debian-based OS's like Mint. HP is apparently developing their own flavour of Linux, as is IBM. Google has been using their own spin on Ubuntu internally and is basing their ChromeOS on it.
You keep thinking that there is some type of corporate mastermind behind Linux trying to usurp the other OS's out there, and there simply isn't. Linux is the code base for a flippin' *kernel*, around which the license allows YOU or ANYONE else to build an operating system. Don't want to? Don't! Don't want to use the OS's other create around the Linux kernel. *Don't, man*. It is there, completely open for you or anyone else to use or not use. But it's just a kernel.
One of the big myths about Linux that some people like to spread is that Linux software is free and that mysterious people throughout the world develop software for Linux just to server their fellow man.
Mystic, buddy, you are getting *way* bent out of shape about this.
Debian is exactly the type of "myth" you describe here, and you are obviously a mile away from understanding how free, open source software *can, if you choose* be capitalized upon to make money supporting (*Supporting, NOT SELLING*). Canonical sells support for their Debian-based OS, Ubuntu. Red Hat sells support for their own Linux, but offers Fedora at no cost, and allows CentOS to re-complie their ENTIRE OS and distribute FOR FREE. Same with Novell and SUSE/ openSUSE. Others do NOT make money on their Debian-based OS's like Mint. HP is apparently developing their own flavour of Linux, as is IBM. Google has been using their own spin on Ubuntu internally and is basing their ChromeOS on it.
You keep thinking that there is some type of corporate mastermind behind Linux trying to usurp the other OS's out there, and there simply isn't. Linux is the code base for a flippin' *kernel*, around which the license allows YOU or ANYONE else to build an operating system. Don't want to? Don't! Don't want to use the OS's other create around the Linux kernel. *Don't, man*. It is there, completely open for you or anyone else to use or not use. But it's just a kernel.
Originally Posted By: Mystic
And something I cannot understand is how people who can develop Linux operating systems can't seem to develop drivers for printers and scanners. I waited years for such software to be developed. Those wizards in the magical forest need to demonstrate how good they really are.
If a computer O/S can't get the job done for people, then nobody will buy that O/S.
Let me clear it up for you, then; once for all, for Pete's sake. The people who design and make the hardware have commercial agreements and obligations to provide support and documentation and API's to Microsoft and/ or Apple. WHY ON EARTH would they devote their resources to developing, then supporting Linux-based OS's when the it would almost certainly require that they OPEN THEIR CODE. So anyone who wants to develop a Linux driver for a given piece of hardware has to either hope for a charitable move on the manufacturers part or reverse engineer it from scratch.
Linux and the other open source projects that complete an operating system (Firefox, OpenOffice, etc.) are free and are out there for you to use OR NOT USE. It is your choice, man. You are being very insulting and dismissive (especially when your above quote indicates how utterly unaware you are of how all this works) with all of this "wizard" and "magic" stuff when you can simply choose not to use something.
Stop waiting for everyone else to engineer drivers for you so you can use an OS you clearly do not understand nor like. Linux-based OS's are a community effort much more than a "product". You want a driver? *Make one* Can't make one? *Use Windows*.
Originally Posted By: Mystic
If there are any great people in Linux they have to make the move. Get out of the circle and advance. It never happens.
And therefore people will continue to use Windows. It does not matter what anybody might think of Windows. As long as Windows enables people to do what they need to do, with great software and hardware support, people will continue to use Windows.
Argh. Mystic, what does someone need to say to you to make you understand this?!
Microsoft and Apple are for-profit corporations trying to SELL SELL SELL SELL SELL stuff to you. Linux is a piece of free software that you can use or not use. THERE IS NO FIGHT. There is no competition. Some people Like Novell and Red Hat and IBM and HP and Google use Linux to make their other products (like most cell phone, big servers, etc.) work better or to lessen the costs of development for themselves. Some sell support contracts for their users who choose to purchase them. You can use Red Hat for free (Fedora, CentOS) and you can use SUSE for free (openSUSE) and you can use Ubuntu for free even though Canonical makes money selling support.
And something I cannot understand is how people who can develop Linux operating systems can't seem to develop drivers for printers and scanners. I waited years for such software to be developed. Those wizards in the magical forest need to demonstrate how good they really are.
If a computer O/S can't get the job done for people, then nobody will buy that O/S.
Let me clear it up for you, then; once for all, for Pete's sake. The people who design and make the hardware have commercial agreements and obligations to provide support and documentation and API's to Microsoft and/ or Apple. WHY ON EARTH would they devote their resources to developing, then supporting Linux-based OS's when the it would almost certainly require that they OPEN THEIR CODE. So anyone who wants to develop a Linux driver for a given piece of hardware has to either hope for a charitable move on the manufacturers part or reverse engineer it from scratch.
Linux and the other open source projects that complete an operating system (Firefox, OpenOffice, etc.) are free and are out there for you to use OR NOT USE. It is your choice, man. You are being very insulting and dismissive (especially when your above quote indicates how utterly unaware you are of how all this works) with all of this "wizard" and "magic" stuff when you can simply choose not to use something.
Stop waiting for everyone else to engineer drivers for you so you can use an OS you clearly do not understand nor like. Linux-based OS's are a community effort much more than a "product". You want a driver? *Make one* Can't make one? *Use Windows*.
Originally Posted By: Mystic
If there are any great people in Linux they have to make the move. Get out of the circle and advance. It never happens.
And therefore people will continue to use Windows. It does not matter what anybody might think of Windows. As long as Windows enables people to do what they need to do, with great software and hardware support, people will continue to use Windows.
Argh. Mystic, what does someone need to say to you to make you understand this?!
Microsoft and Apple are for-profit corporations trying to SELL SELL SELL SELL SELL stuff to you. Linux is a piece of free software that you can use or not use. THERE IS NO FIGHT. There is no competition. Some people Like Novell and Red Hat and IBM and HP and Google use Linux to make their other products (like most cell phone, big servers, etc.) work better or to lessen the costs of development for themselves. Some sell support contracts for their users who choose to purchase them. You can use Red Hat for free (Fedora, CentOS) and you can use SUSE for free (openSUSE) and you can use Ubuntu for free even though Canonical makes money selling support.
Originally Posted By: Mystic
And something I cannot understand is how people who can develop Linux operating systems can't seem to develop drivers for printers and scanners. I waited years for such software to be developed. Those wizards in the magical forest need to demonstrate how good they really are.
If a computer O/S can't get the job done for people, then nobody will buy that O/S.
It's because it's not being used for those purposes. My employer, Oracle has it's flavor of Linux, in addition to Solaris (Since I come from Sun)
Their target is not so folks can print and scan documents, or play games, or get photos from their digital camera, or sync their iPod. Their focus is enterprise computing. So hosting databases, or web servers, or applications, etc.
The other thing is look at what all the O/S's have in common. Sun, MS, Oracle, HP, they didn't invent things like TCP/IP, but they all have them. In fact, many of the things that Sun invented, such as RCP, NFS, NIS (ok,not so much) Java are largely available on other platforms.
The problem isn't entirely with the Linux developers. Part of it also lies with those who make the devices. There are few if any standards. If I can share files using the well known standard NFS, or connect via the well known standard, TCP/IP, then why can't there be standards for those devices?
If there was a true, generic printer driver standard, or scanner standard, etc, then you would probably see that in Linux in 6 months.
But as long as there HP, Samsung, and a dozen other printer drivers, then it's up to the printer maker to provide the driver.
Heck, I think even for a particular printer maker, there is not one driver, but perhaps dozens of drivers to support different models of printers.
Since they own the IP surrounding how the printer works, they are the ones who have to provide the driver for the target O/S.
And something I cannot understand is how people who can develop Linux operating systems can't seem to develop drivers for printers and scanners. I waited years for such software to be developed. Those wizards in the magical forest need to demonstrate how good they really are.
If a computer O/S can't get the job done for people, then nobody will buy that O/S.
It's because it's not being used for those purposes. My employer, Oracle has it's flavor of Linux, in addition to Solaris (Since I come from Sun)
Their target is not so folks can print and scan documents, or play games, or get photos from their digital camera, or sync their iPod. Their focus is enterprise computing. So hosting databases, or web servers, or applications, etc.
The other thing is look at what all the O/S's have in common. Sun, MS, Oracle, HP, they didn't invent things like TCP/IP, but they all have them. In fact, many of the things that Sun invented, such as RCP, NFS, NIS (ok,not so much) Java are largely available on other platforms.
The problem isn't entirely with the Linux developers. Part of it also lies with those who make the devices. There are few if any standards. If I can share files using the well known standard NFS, or connect via the well known standard, TCP/IP, then why can't there be standards for those devices?
If there was a true, generic printer driver standard, or scanner standard, etc, then you would probably see that in Linux in 6 months.
But as long as there HP, Samsung, and a dozen other printer drivers, then it's up to the printer maker to provide the driver.
Heck, I think even for a particular printer maker, there is not one driver, but perhaps dozens of drivers to support different models of printers.
Since they own the IP surrounding how the printer works, they are the ones who have to provide the driver for the target O/S.
Originally Posted By: uc50ic4more
Stop waiting for everyone else to engineer drivers for you so you can use an OS you clearly do not understand nor like. Linux-based OS's are a community effort much more than a "product". You want a driver? *Make one* Can't make one? *Use Windows*.
I normally find that comment from Linux zealots condescending and annoying, but in this thread,
BTW, I recently tried to upgrade a couple of computers to Windows 7. Both were Win 7 ready according to the MS Win 7 readiness test software.
On my wife's 4 year old HP Laptop, several things didn't work because Win 7 didn't have drivers and HP doesn't supply drivers for such antique (4 years) laptops. I called HP and their suggestion was that I buy a new computer, so I bought my wife a Mac.
Bleep HP. Ubuntu 9.10 did run on her computer and everything worked, so much for lack of drivers for Linux.
In my Frankenmix AMD-64 desktop, Win 7 installed without a hitch except my HP printer wouldn't work, no drivers. I finally found some drivers for another HP printer that make it work well enough to be usable, but several extra features don't work. It works under Ubuntu, not every feature, but Ubuntu didn't make me go look for drivers.
None of this is a slam on Microsoft ( A company I love to hate), they knocked it out of the park with Win 7. The problem for me was that HP driver support for products a few years old sucks, the Linux world does a better job than HP at that.
Win 7 should be good though, look at how long and expensive the Win 7 beta trials were (Vista)
Stop waiting for everyone else to engineer drivers for you so you can use an OS you clearly do not understand nor like. Linux-based OS's are a community effort much more than a "product". You want a driver? *Make one* Can't make one? *Use Windows*.
I normally find that comment from Linux zealots condescending and annoying, but in this thread,
BTW, I recently tried to upgrade a couple of computers to Windows 7. Both were Win 7 ready according to the MS Win 7 readiness test software.
On my wife's 4 year old HP Laptop, several things didn't work because Win 7 didn't have drivers and HP doesn't supply drivers for such antique (4 years) laptops. I called HP and their suggestion was that I buy a new computer, so I bought my wife a Mac.
In my Frankenmix AMD-64 desktop, Win 7 installed without a hitch except my HP printer wouldn't work, no drivers. I finally found some drivers for another HP printer that make it work well enough to be usable, but several extra features don't work. It works under Ubuntu, not every feature, but Ubuntu didn't make me go look for drivers.
None of this is a slam on Microsoft ( A company I love to hate), they knocked it out of the park with Win 7. The problem for me was that HP driver support for products a few years old sucks, the Linux world does a better job than HP at that.
Win 7 should be good though, look at how long and expensive the Win 7 beta trials were (Vista)
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Mystic
Actually OVERKILL that is Unix magic. There is magic in Unix. There is no magic in Linux. There is magic in FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, and Mac OS X (which I guess could kind of be considered a version of FreeBSD). People built great Unix servers. I still remember the first computers we had. I think one of them cost $500,000.00. Now there are Linux servers but they came after the great Unix computers.
If there really was any Linux magic Microsoft would be in trouble.
Sorry, my second pic link didn't work. It was a picture of Tux in a wizard outfit with the statement "domination through cooperation" underneath it
Actually OVERKILL that is Unix magic. There is magic in Unix. There is no magic in Linux. There is magic in FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, and Mac OS X (which I guess could kind of be considered a version of FreeBSD). People built great Unix servers. I still remember the first computers we had. I think one of them cost $500,000.00. Now there are Linux servers but they came after the great Unix computers.
If there really was any Linux magic Microsoft would be in trouble.
Sorry, my second pic link didn't work. It was a picture of Tux in a wizard outfit with the statement "domination through cooperation" underneath it
I listed Oracle as an O/S, but I was thinking of Oracle's Linux offering. Instead of saying Linux, I typed Oracle.
I think the assimilation is complete, LOL
I think the assimilation is complete, LOL
I used MAGIC on a BSD machine years ago
http://bwrc.eecs.berkeley.edu/Classes/IcBook/magic/index.html
http://bwrc.eecs.berkeley.edu/Classes/IcBook/magic/index.html
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: javacontour
I listed Oracle as an O/S, but I was thinking of Oracle's Linux offering. Instead of saying Linux, I typed Oracle.
I think the assimilation is complete, LOL
I just downloaded OpenSolaris two days ago to slap on a small office server for a client.
I've developed a greater fondness for Sun's products over the last year or so that we've talked.
I listed Oracle as an O/S, but I was thinking of Oracle's Linux offering. Instead of saying Linux, I typed Oracle.
I think the assimilation is complete, LOL
I just downloaded OpenSolaris two days ago to slap on a small office server for a client.
I've developed a greater fondness for Sun's products over the last year or so that we've talked.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: javacontour
I used MAGIC on a BSD machine years ago
http://bwrc.eecs.berkeley.edu/Classes/IcBook/magic/index.html
I used IRIX years ago on an SGI box, LOL. I still have a real soft spot for SGI.
I used MAGIC on a BSD machine years ago
http://bwrc.eecs.berkeley.edu/Classes/IcBook/magic/index.html
I used IRIX years ago on an SGI box, LOL. I still have a real soft spot for SGI.
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