Onkyo and Denon

[nthach]

As far as I know, Denon and Onyko were the creme de la creme for “mass-market” stuff - The Good Guys in the Bay Area(before Best Buy came in) carried it. It was below Marantz, Mark Levinson(yes, that Mark Levinson used in Lexus) and other audiophile brands price-wise. The distribution is still limited these days - Amazon, Crutchfield and Best Buy’s Magnolia carries it.

now, Denon owns Marantz, and Onkyo bought out Pioneer’s home entertainment division. My parents have a Denon-era Marantz I hooked up for laughs and giggles as a spare 2.1 setup. It sounds great for a 2007-2008 era receiver, it was one of the first ones with an HDMI switch. I connected a set of 1990s era PSB speakers to it. My dad has a 1990s era Onkyo Integra with a bad speaker output - I suspect a MOSFET went out. It was one of the very first Dolby Pro-Logic receivers for the consumer market.

in this day and age of consolidation, no one is truly independent. D&M Holdings is Denon and Marantz, Onkyo is licensed to use the Pioneer name. Samsung owns Harman. Consumers are shying away from discrete home theater, they want soundbars and “smart” speakers.

 

[ET16]

One of the things that's sometimes different today is how manufacturers list specs: you see high amp wattage and then look closer and find that the distortion level for the wattage is sky high, 5% or something.

 

[Quattro Pete]

One of the things that's sometimes different today is how manufacturers list specs: you see high amp wattage and then look closer and find that the distortion level for the wattage is sky high, 5% or something.

Or that it's only at 1 kHz, and only with 1 channel driven.

 

[#18FAN]

One of the things that's sometimes different today is how manufacturers list specs: you see high amp wattage and then look closer and find that the distortion level for the wattage is sky high, 5% or something.

If a amp measures better than another is it a better amo? Some of the world best sounding amps don't always measure so well.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Or that it's only at 1 kHz, and only with 1 channel driven.

Yea, what ever happened to FTC rating requiring RMS both channels driven 20-20khz?
Remember those silly 500 WPC or 1000wpc "IPP" rating in the 70's on those dime store rack systems that were lucky to make 20wpc?

Does big business always win out over consumer advocacy?

But HT is not "serious" audiophile stuff, maybe that's why the ball was dropped - and likely NOT pursued by the industry .

But now the HiFi hobby is changing again; I see the pendulum swinging with the new generation
taking to it. Social media content is a big force in this. I've it starting with kids/ young adults wanting better headphone sound. Then we see aspirational high fidelity promoted and demonstrated online by Z Reviews and the like.**

** It appears Zeos (Steve Ciafolo) did very well on YT - he just moved out of a cluttered apt. above a storefront and bought a new house. I guess with over 5k-7k dollars coming in a month from a well run channel, with a good personality and good sound recording chops, then you have this well deserved success.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

If a amp measures better than another is it a better amo? Some of the world best sounding amps don't always measure so well.

The have been measuring the wrong thing for years.
Steady state THD doesnt translate to listenability unless it exceptionally poor.

But power rating at low frequencies (20hz) in to low impedance loads will reveal how good a supply and circuit is at delivering current.

 

[BeerCan]

As Nelson Pass said, it's all about the first watt. I had a pass amp at one time, it was nice sounding.

www.firstwatt.com

 

[ARCOgraphite]

As Nelson Pass said, it's all about the first watt. I had a pass amp at one time, it was nice sounding.

www.firstwatt.com

I recall when I bought an amp with meters being amazed that the average power was about a 1/2 watt or less at "normal" listening levels. You only dig into big power with giant bass transients or sustained deafening levels - even then, average power was about 5 - 7 watts on a 89-91 db/w/m sensitivity loudspeaker.

But, Some large dipole panels were current hungry and along with their very low impedance - they ate some juice!

 

[Quattro Pete]

Speaking of 1 Watt...

 

[UncleDave]

Yea, what ever happened to FTC rating requiring RMS both channels driven 20-20khz?
Remember those silly 500 WPC or 1000wpc "IPP" rating in the 70's on those dime store rack systems that were lucky to make 20wpc?

Does big business always win out over consumer advocacy?

But HT is not "serious" audiophile stuff, maybe that's why the ball was dropped - and likely NOT pursued by the industry .

But now the HiFi hobby is changing again; I see the pendulum swinging with the new generation
taking to it. Social media content is a big force in this. I've it starting with kids/ young adults wanting better headphone sound. Then we see aspirational high fidelity promoted and demonstrated online by Z Reviews and the like.**

** It appears Zeos (Steve Ciafolo) did very well on YT - he just moved out of a cluttered apt. above a storefront and bought a new house. I guess with over 5k-7k dollars coming in a month from a well run channel, with a good personality and good sound recording chops, then you have this well deserved success.

If I recall those ridiculous ratings back in the day on cheap junk was "PMPO" or peak mean power output.

The first watt is the most important, and one can tell by how the calibration on any power meter is completely nonlinear and biased towards the bottom half.

Its also why we got away with and had a ball with 20 and 30 watt amps for decades. It's also true that some amps inaccurately "color" the sounds, but its meaningless because people often prefer altered sounds. Sounding good and measuring well often don't go together.

To me the first small good sounding small radio was a proton, then Bose came out with the wave which started the whole desktop craze.

 

[Quattro Pete]

It's also true that some amps inaccurately "color" the sounds, but its meaningless because people often prefer altered sounds. Sounding good and measuring well often don't go together.

Exactly. People look for frequency graphs showing flat response, but most of us don't enjoy hearing it due to the way human ears function.

 

[JT20]

Is it true you only need a subwoofer below 50-60Hz? Or do I have that wrong. It's been years.

The 80s tech I grew up on IIRC said that for GOOD BASS, you need 1. Low ohm wire.. say 4 Ohm. Maybe 2. I forget. 4 was "big" for hone theatre ? 2. Big wattage. 100W RMS MINIMUM; the Akai was 4x100, Channel A and B amp. I LOVED the feel of the buttons.

3. HEAVY speakers, to drive the magnet behind large Woofers. 12 inches or better. Everyone seemed to have their own favorite loudspeaker.

4. Clean sound source, like CD or at least Chrome bias cassettes.

I think the JBL Bookshelf could ers could pump out bass down to 120Hz or so. Of course, anything over "2" (2 out of 10) on the sliding volume scale on the amp was LOUD; Crank it to "4" and it was TOO LOUD and you'd hear distortion if you listened. Had to turn it back down FAST . Like a poster here said, with a good amp you run out of speaker;...

How am I doing so far. ?

 

[Quattro Pete]

Is it true you only need a subwoofer below 50-60Hz? Or do I have that wrong. It's been years.

Can't really make a blank statement like that as it greatly depends on the capabilities of your mains speakers.

 

[JT20]

Can't really make a blank statement like that as it greatly depends on the capabilities of your mains speakers.

Please forgive me, I always thought these were good speakers.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Please forgive me, I always thought these were good speakers.

I don't know what 'these' refers to.

 

[JT20]

I don't know what 'these' refers to.

The Cerwin-Vega D Series.

 

[Quattro Pete]

The Cerwin-Vega D Series.

Would want to see a frequency response chart to determine where it may need help. Or maybe it doesn't.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

I don't know what 'these' refers to.

Cerwin-Vega Larger D series will be flat - or even a bit boosted ( q=1) playing an open E string on an electric bass.
Anything below that is considered Sub Bass.
If you have small desktop satellites going down to 90-110hz, that box to fill in the bottom is called a "woofer".

I had a pair of C-V D9 for "Party" speakers and they were VERY very good sounding though not
"Très Haute fidélité " But the best sounding Loud playing speaker I had heard in a sub $3000 - System.

I had chosen The D9's from many top names, with many pricier, in a semi-blind listening test using a speaker comparator switch
at a High end Hi-Fi Store.

p.s.: You want your speaker wire to measure below 1/2 Ohm and choose likely around 12 - 16 gauge depending on run.
The Copper quality and winding and insulation is more important than absolute "gauge" in home use.

p.s:

 

[BeerCan]

I used to run a sub, I never was satisfied with it. I could never get the placement right to make it disappear. Tried for a long time and finally gave up. Most of my speakers went low enough that I did not miss it when I removed it. Part of the issue was the crossover freq which a lot of people ignore.

 

[Quattro Pete]

I used to run a sub, I never was satisfied with it. I could never get the placement right to make it disappear. Tried for a long time and finally gave up.

The solution to this is multiple subs, placed strategically in order to smooth out the bass, alas, not everyone has the space or WAF becomes a major issue.