First off, hello to everyone. Well i just got back my oil sample and it is saying that there is high oxidation levels. I have changed the oil four times, one with rotella and the other three with amsoil. Its a 08 duramax with 20,000 miles. The oil was about 5,000 miles old so i think there is no reason for it to have it high (maybe i am wrong please help). Is castrol hypuron a better oil than amsoil? Thanks in advance for any help!
Oil sample is back
- Thread starter c55asleep
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Originally Posted By: c55asleep
First off, hello to everyone. Well i just got back my oil sample and it is saying that there is high oxidation levels. I have changed the oil four times, one with rotella and the other three with amsoil. Its a 08 duramax with 20,000 miles. The oil was about 5,000 miles old so i think there is no reason for it to have it high (maybe i am wrong please help). Is castrol hypuron a better oil than amsoil? Thanks in advance for any help!
Post your UOA in the UOA section. No Castrol is not better.
What lab? Most labs don't even do oxidation correctly, and more importantly they don't run a virgin oxidation number on the oil. Most synthetic oils will register a high oxidation number to start - this does not mean the oil is oxidized. You need to compare the virgin oil to the used oil.
First off, hello to everyone. Well i just got back my oil sample and it is saying that there is high oxidation levels. I have changed the oil four times, one with rotella and the other three with amsoil. Its a 08 duramax with 20,000 miles. The oil was about 5,000 miles old so i think there is no reason for it to have it high (maybe i am wrong please help). Is castrol hypuron a better oil than amsoil? Thanks in advance for any help!
Post your UOA in the UOA section. No Castrol is not better.
What lab? Most labs don't even do oxidation correctly, and more importantly they don't run a virgin oxidation number on the oil. Most synthetic oils will register a high oxidation number to start - this does not mean the oil is oxidized. You need to compare the virgin oil to the used oil.
well first its a duramax, we got most of the problem solved.
its an 08 so you got alot of emissions stuff on there. if you have any mods on it oxidation would be normal or really its just not broken in yet. how big of loads to you tow
iron 28
chromium 1
nickel aluminum 4
lead copper 12
tin 2
silver 0.2
titanium silicon boron 39
sodium 5
potassium 10
molybdenum 40
phosphorus 1203
zinc 1364
calcium 1266
barium magnesium 1080
antimony vanadium
fuel % vol fuel soot ABS OXID 48 This is the one that is high??
abs nitr 7
wtr % vol vis cs 100'c 14.6
From castrol labcheck
chromium 1
nickel aluminum 4
lead copper 12
tin 2
silver 0.2
titanium silicon boron 39
sodium 5
potassium 10
molybdenum 40
phosphorus 1203
zinc 1364
calcium 1266
barium magnesium 1080
antimony vanadium
fuel % vol fuel soot ABS OXID 48 This is the one that is high??
abs nitr 7
wtr % vol vis cs 100'c 14.6
From castrol labcheck
Originally Posted By: Petrou
well first its a duramax, we got most of the problem solved.
its an 08 so you got alot of emissions stuff on there. if you have any mods on it oxidation would be normal or really its just not broken in yet. how big of loads to you tow
Thank you!! Well all the dpf stuff is gone including the egr system. It does have a few mods but no towing.
well first its a duramax, we got most of the problem solved.
its an 08 so you got alot of emissions stuff on there. if you have any mods on it oxidation would be normal or really its just not broken in yet. how big of loads to you tow
Thank you!! Well all the dpf stuff is gone including the egr system. It does have a few mods but no towing.
dnewton3
Staff member
"Better" is a relative term, so I'll disagree with Pablo on some level.
"Better" is how you define it. You must rank order your wants/needs and then decide.
If you desire longevity of OCI then synthetics and high-end filtration are paramount. But if short OCIs are going to be routine, then high end products don't typically pay off. It's a question of "value" for some, and "protection" for others.
How long will you honestly keep your Dmax, and how many miles will you accumlate? The list of variables goes on and on.
Amsoil is likly "better" at some things like OCI longevity and thermal protection, but if you don't operate with these as limiting factors, then the added cost of PAOs does not really make sense.
If a top-end synthetic and filter cost 4x as much money, but you OCI at the same intervals as "conventional" oil/filters, would you get 4x less "wear" from the top end products? Likely not even close. So is it "better" to pay 4x the $$$ for perhaps (nearly) the same wear? Not for most of us.
For "normal" OCIs, today's dino fluids suffice more than well enough, for a much smaller cost. For extended OCIs and/or extreme (and I only mean E-X-T-R-E-M-E) conditions, then high end products make sense.
"Better", as is beauty, is in the eye of the beholder ...
"Better" is how you define it. You must rank order your wants/needs and then decide.
If you desire longevity of OCI then synthetics and high-end filtration are paramount. But if short OCIs are going to be routine, then high end products don't typically pay off. It's a question of "value" for some, and "protection" for others.
How long will you honestly keep your Dmax, and how many miles will you accumlate? The list of variables goes on and on.
Amsoil is likly "better" at some things like OCI longevity and thermal protection, but if you don't operate with these as limiting factors, then the added cost of PAOs does not really make sense.
If a top-end synthetic and filter cost 4x as much money, but you OCI at the same intervals as "conventional" oil/filters, would you get 4x less "wear" from the top end products? Likely not even close. So is it "better" to pay 4x the $$$ for perhaps (nearly) the same wear? Not for most of us.
For "normal" OCIs, today's dino fluids suffice more than well enough, for a much smaller cost. For extended OCIs and/or extreme (and I only mean E-X-T-R-E-M-E) conditions, then high end products make sense.
"Better", as is beauty, is in the eye of the beholder ...
Originally Posted By: c55asleep
ABS OXID 48 This is the one that is high??
Again - without knowing the virgin number, it's meaningless.
By the way - which Amsoil HDEO is this? Why don't you post in the UOA section?
ABS OXID 48 This is the one that is high??
Again - without knowing the virgin number, it's meaningless.
By the way - which Amsoil HDEO is this? Why don't you post in the UOA section?
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
"Better" is a relative term, so I'll disagree with Pablo on some level.
If a top-end synthetic and filter cost 4x as much money.....
I just said Castrol is "not better". Cool down. I notice you need to work in the filter and use "if". Looks like this is AME 15w40(?), but it's certainly not 4X the cost.
"Better" is a relative term, so I'll disagree with Pablo on some level.
If a top-end synthetic and filter cost 4x as much money.....
I just said Castrol is "not better". Cool down. I notice you need to work in the filter and use "if". Looks like this is AME 15w40(?), but it's certainly not 4X the cost.
dnewton3
Staff member
In no way do I want to degrade the Amsoil products; not my intent. My apologies. They are fantastic when "used as directed", so to say. There are times when they make for a very sound choice. And there are times when they don't.
I just don't like unqualified statements or questions. By "unqualified", I mean without bounds or limits.
To say something is "better" (or in this case, "not better") is a fairly broad blanket statement. Since the OP really told us little of his operational bounds, it's unfair to say that Hypuron is not "better". It may or may not be true, but we know so little about the OPs total operation and maintenance, that "better" or "not better" are too broad a generalization.
Regarding the "4x" cost figure, that's fairly accurate, depending upon just which products you look at. Not hard to find Rotella or Delvac on sale, and often with rebates, making them less than $2/qrt. A decent Wix/NG filter is not expensive either. Compare that to Amsoil fluid and EaO filter, and it's very easily 4x the cost. That was a fair comparison on my part. Looking at his Dmax (I have one as well); let's compare real costs.
10 qrts of Delvac @ $1.75/qrt (a real price I paid with rebate) plus a $6 filter (NG) on sale. Total cost of $23.50.
Versus ...
10 qrts of DEO (or other CJ-4 for his 2008) is around $75 (including some preferred pricing!) and maybe $15 for an EaO52 filter, plus shipping. Right around $100, give or take a few bucks. That's about 4x the cost. Exactly 4x the cost? Maybe not; but darn close. Even if you drop out the filters from both scenarios, you'd still have around $75 in oil plus a little shipping, so you'd still be at 4x the cost ($80 for Amsoil including shipping versus $17.50). (Why did I not include a fuel/shipping charge in the Delvac purchase price? Because I can get that at Walmart or other store in a combined shopping effort, so the "fuel surcharge" is simply negligible).
4x the price? YES. Those are very real, fair prices.
So, for the Hypuron to not be "better", the Amsoil would either have to supply either:
1) longer OCIs, or
2) less wear, ...
equivilant to the cost ratio.
Since I dont' know what Hypuron costs, I cannot say it's "better". But since we don't know how the OCI will be managed, nor the operating environment, it's fair to say that we DON'T know Hypuron is NOT better ...
I just don't like unqualified statements or questions. By "unqualified", I mean without bounds or limits.
To say something is "better" (or in this case, "not better") is a fairly broad blanket statement. Since the OP really told us little of his operational bounds, it's unfair to say that Hypuron is not "better". It may or may not be true, but we know so little about the OPs total operation and maintenance, that "better" or "not better" are too broad a generalization.
Regarding the "4x" cost figure, that's fairly accurate, depending upon just which products you look at. Not hard to find Rotella or Delvac on sale, and often with rebates, making them less than $2/qrt. A decent Wix/NG filter is not expensive either. Compare that to Amsoil fluid and EaO filter, and it's very easily 4x the cost. That was a fair comparison on my part. Looking at his Dmax (I have one as well); let's compare real costs.
10 qrts of Delvac @ $1.75/qrt (a real price I paid with rebate) plus a $6 filter (NG) on sale. Total cost of $23.50.
Versus ...
10 qrts of DEO (or other CJ-4 for his 2008) is around $75 (including some preferred pricing!) and maybe $15 for an EaO52 filter, plus shipping. Right around $100, give or take a few bucks. That's about 4x the cost. Exactly 4x the cost? Maybe not; but darn close. Even if you drop out the filters from both scenarios, you'd still have around $75 in oil plus a little shipping, so you'd still be at 4x the cost ($80 for Amsoil including shipping versus $17.50). (Why did I not include a fuel/shipping charge in the Delvac purchase price? Because I can get that at Walmart or other store in a combined shopping effort, so the "fuel surcharge" is simply negligible).
4x the price? YES. Those are very real, fair prices.
So, for the Hypuron to not be "better", the Amsoil would either have to supply either:
1) longer OCIs, or
2) less wear, ...
equivilant to the cost ratio.
Since I dont' know what Hypuron costs, I cannot say it's "better". But since we don't know how the OCI will be managed, nor the operating environment, it's fair to say that we DON'T know Hypuron is NOT better ...
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Delvac - $1.75 quart? "Those are very real, fair prices." OK, but that has to be pretty rare. Is it CJ-4? I must say I was just shopping for oil and the only oil less than $3 quart was "No Oil". That's a fair real shopping trip.
But let's get back to the original post.
A couple points about oxidation numbers (and nitration number to some extent) that are typically not shown on a simple UOA.
1) *As I have stated, a single number without comparison is rather meaningless. It's a relative number to be compared to virgin (unused) oil and from there can be compared with the same oil in use over time.
2) The scale must be known. Sometimes the scale is 200 for example.
3) *In relation to 1 above - most all synthetic oils have base oils (esters) that cause peaks in the IR scan (or other methodology) that are very similar to peaks representing the function "O" (oxygen) on the ester.
At this point here is what I would do. Contact the lab and ask them to explain their oxidation determination procedure (ask for the scale as well) and have them run a virgin sample if possible.
But let's get back to the original post.
A couple points about oxidation numbers (and nitration number to some extent) that are typically not shown on a simple UOA.
1) *As I have stated, a single number without comparison is rather meaningless. It's a relative number to be compared to virgin (unused) oil and from there can be compared with the same oil in use over time.
2) The scale must be known. Sometimes the scale is 200 for example.
3) *In relation to 1 above - most all synthetic oils have base oils (esters) that cause peaks in the IR scan (or other methodology) that are very similar to peaks representing the function "O" (oxygen) on the ester.
At this point here is what I would do. Contact the lab and ask them to explain their oxidation determination procedure (ask for the scale as well) and have them run a virgin sample if possible.
I doubt that this is AME because the calcium is WAY low (AME pushes up to 4,000 ppm). This might be DME...I haven't seen a VOA of that flavor variety yet. OP what Amsoil product did you use??
Originally Posted By: pickled
I doubt that this is AME because the calcium is WAY low (AME pushes up to 4,000 ppm). This might be DME...I haven't seen a VOA of that flavor variety yet. OP what Amsoil product did you use??
It is Amsoil sae 15w40 premium Api cj-4 diesel oil.
I doubt that this is AME because the calcium is WAY low (AME pushes up to 4,000 ppm). This might be DME...I haven't seen a VOA of that flavor variety yet. OP what Amsoil product did you use??
It is Amsoil sae 15w40 premium Api cj-4 diesel oil.
DME then. Ok that makes more sense than us scratching our heads thinking it was the CI-4+ 15W40 AME. Thanks for clearing that up for us.
Originally Posted By: pickled
DME then. Ok that makes more sense than us scratching our heads thinking it was the CI-4+ 15W40 AME. Thanks for clearing that up for us.
Sorry for the mix up. I just been a little over concerned about the issue and over looked some details I shouldve said. Well at least to my understanding their really isn't
to much metal wear. Hopefully someone can help me understand this a bit better. Thanks again everyone!!
DME then. Ok that makes more sense than us scratching our heads thinking it was the CI-4+ 15W40 AME. Thanks for clearing that up for us.
Sorry for the mix up. I just been a little over concerned about the issue and over looked some details I shouldve said. Well at least to my understanding their really isn't
to much metal wear. Hopefully someone can help me understand this a bit better. Thanks again everyone!!
dnewton3
Staff member
With due respect, Pablo, you're going to have to get out of the Amsoil house more often. The prices I'm quoting are not "rare" and are, in fact, very easily discovered if you look around. If I am willing to concede an Amsoil preferred discount to those that would seek it, then by fairness you should concede HDEO is easily attained for $2/quart. I'll give examples:
If you extend the OCI out 4x or greater with Amsoil, then certainly Amsoil fluids are plausible and make sense, and will perform in a stellar fassion. While I have never used Amsoil, I do not subscribe to the "Amsoil conspiracy" mentality. I have used PAO-based products, with great success and been very pleased with them. However, unlike some, I actually analyze my "needs" and seperate them from my "wants", then balance the pros/cons of both, and make an informed decision. But if one is constrained by warranty (or mentally) to short OCIs, they surely won't get 4x less wear by using a high-end PAO (regardless of brand) over a quality dino HDEO. I would challenge anyone to show me convincing evidence of successive UOAs showing 4x less wear for any brand PAO, compared to dino HDEOs, for short-to-moderate OCIs. Therefore, this is where I have a problem with your blanket statement of Hypuron not being "better" than Amsoil. Depening upon OCI interval, the Castol product might certainly be "better" on a "value" basis, and still give excellent UOA results.
To the other topic, I agree with you. Oxidation cannot be understood unless the baseline is known, and the type of testing used. Your suggestion of contacting the lab for clarification is spot on.
If you extend the OCI out 4x or greater with Amsoil, then certainly Amsoil fluids are plausible and make sense, and will perform in a stellar fassion. While I have never used Amsoil, I do not subscribe to the "Amsoil conspiracy" mentality. I have used PAO-based products, with great success and been very pleased with them. However, unlike some, I actually analyze my "needs" and seperate them from my "wants", then balance the pros/cons of both, and make an informed decision. But if one is constrained by warranty (or mentally) to short OCIs, they surely won't get 4x less wear by using a high-end PAO (regardless of brand) over a quality dino HDEO. I would challenge anyone to show me convincing evidence of successive UOAs showing 4x less wear for any brand PAO, compared to dino HDEOs, for short-to-moderate OCIs. Therefore, this is where I have a problem with your blanket statement of Hypuron not being "better" than Amsoil. Depening upon OCI interval, the Castol product might certainly be "better" on a "value" basis, and still give excellent UOA results.
To the other topic, I agree with you. Oxidation cannot be understood unless the baseline is known, and the type of testing used. Your suggestion of contacting the lab for clarification is spot on.
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Pablo, I have to say that Dave is right on the mark here. I KNOW FOR A FACT he is correct as I am a rehabilitated Amsoil junkie. My UOA's and wallet prove exactly what he is saying and what I discovered on my own.
Let me just say, with all due respect, that Amsoil is NOT the end all be all of HDEO's. I don't need to be redundant and say what Dave and others on here have said time and time again. Extended OCI's, sure........wait, I just said I wouldn't be redundant. That being said, it is something you may need to think about in a little more depth. Just sayin'.......
Let me just say, with all due respect, that Amsoil is NOT the end all be all of HDEO's. I don't need to be redundant and say what Dave and others on here have said time and time again. Extended OCI's, sure........wait, I just said I wouldn't be redundant. That being said, it is something you may need to think about in a little more depth. Just sayin'.......
Originally Posted By: cowhorse01
Pablo, I have to say that Dave is right on the mark here. I KNOW FOR A FACT he is correct as I am a rehabilitated Amsoil junkie. My UOA's and wallet prove exactly what he is saying and what I discovered on my own.
Let me just say, with all due respect, that Amsoil is NOT the end all be all of HDEO's. I don't need to be redundant and say what Dave and others on here have said time and time again. Extended OCI's, sure........wait, I just said I wouldn't be redundant. That being said, it is something you may need to think about in a little more depth. Just sayin'.......
The pocket really does start to hurt.
Pablo, I have to say that Dave is right on the mark here. I KNOW FOR A FACT he is correct as I am a rehabilitated Amsoil junkie. My UOA's and wallet prove exactly what he is saying and what I discovered on my own.
Let me just say, with all due respect, that Amsoil is NOT the end all be all of HDEO's. I don't need to be redundant and say what Dave and others on here have said time and time again. Extended OCI's, sure........wait, I just said I wouldn't be redundant. That being said, it is something you may need to think about in a little more depth. Just sayin'.......
The pocket really does start to hurt.
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