Oil advice from Stihl ...

[Japanese]

You have not ever owned and operated a Stihl 4-mix, right? Edit... So, what is your experience with 2 stroke ope? Brands and models?

I own 2-stroke Chinese string trimmer and three 2-stroke motorbikes. I haven't seized any of them even running some of them at 50:1.

Now, tell us how everybody run their 4-MIX engines at 50:1 with various both synthetic and synthetic blend oils and didn't seize them but you did with so many years of experience?

Let me guess—you measured the right amount of oil but adjusted the carb to run lean. Or last time you adjusted your carb to lean before running a thicker oil and then forgot to set it back to normal for the lower viscosity oils.

My question is still present:
Why did you temper your carb when perform tests of different oils and run the same ratios? How would we know about each oil burning and lubricating if you adjust the carb every time?

 

[lilspenny]

I own 2-stroke Chinese string trimmer and three 2-stroke motorbikes. I haven't seized any of them even running some of them at 50:1.

Now, tell us how everybody run their 4-MIX engines at 50:1 with various both synthetic and synthetic blend oils and didn't seize them but you did with so many years of experience?

Let me guess—you measured the right amount of oil but adjusted the carb to run lean. Or last time you adjusted your carb to lean before running a thicker oil and then forgot to set it back to normal for the lower viscosity oils.

My question is still present:
Why did you temper your carb when perform tests of different oils and run the same ratios? How would we know about each oil burning and lubricating if you adjust the carb every time?

The seizure was at 50:1 running wot for close to 25 minutes. Best guess as to cause of seizure was a pushrod coming off a cam follower. Did this have anything to do with lubrication? Perhaps. There is no way to know at this point. I examined the engine at the dealership and all I could tell was that one of the cam followers was broken to pieces and the pieces were wedged into places that prohibited the engine from turning. A 4-mix engine is not tuned in the same manner as a 2-stroke. Running slightly rich as with 2 strokes is not advisable. There are 2 valves which can collect carbon and not open/close correctly if a rich air/gas mixture is used. Should a 25:1 mixture ever be used? Not in any 4-mix engine. I have used various ratios in various 4-mix engines with various oils and going with more oil than 36:1 has never worked out well, even with Quicksilver synthetic blend oil. Schaeffer's 7000 tc-w3 synthetic made a carbon mess at 36:1. What does work in a 4-mix engine is Motorex Crosspower 2T at 40:1 but every other oil I have used with more oil than 40:1 has produced considerable carbon. The 4-mix engine is not able to digest the same oils/ratios as a typical 2-stroke. People who have run 4-mix engines and who have paid attention to what has gone on within their engines understand that more oil is not as welcomed as in a 2-stroke. More carbon can cause valves to not operate correctly. The typical 2 stroke does not have valves and can handle more oil better. There was a period of time when I ran various gas station oils in my fs100rx because there wasn't a dealer nearby who sold decent oil. That's when I was a landscaper on a tight schedule. I would follow what I thought was common sense and simply use more oil. That was before 2010. I doubt that a 4-mix would ever do well on 32:1 or more oil. One of the most dangerous situations for a 4-mix or 2-stroke is wot for prolonged periods of time. The oil in the crankcase is at low levels. Is this what happened to cause my engine to seize? Perhaps. Stihl saw pics, decided to approved warranty replacement, and a complete teardown was not performed. Back to your tuning question, and it is a good question. Every single 4-mix engine I have ever owned or operated has had approximately a 1 in 4 chance of a new oil causing an rpm variance or runability variance. Why? Not sure. But it is what it is. Failure to keep the carb properly adjusted can lead to carbon/ash buildup on the valves... Not just a clogged spark arrestor. I have been testing various oils at various ratios. Just like when the caged monkeys are given drugs as part of a test, results vary. Risks are higher when trying various oils. It's like going to the grocery store and buying a chocolate cake. Will it taste good? Maybe. Will a motorcycle oil run well in a leaf blower wot at 50:1 if it's maker says it exceeds Jaso FD and it's viscosity is well within acceptable range? Should, right? Not necessarily. But was the oil the cause of failure? I don't know, but Stihl obviously did not think so. Will I run Super M Injector again? No. Was the carb adjustment too lean? No, it was just right. I've been running Stihl 4-mix engines since 2005 and adjusting Stihl 4-mix carbs since 2005. I know how to properly do so. I understand that you have questions but you are basically asking the same questions over and over and I have answered in a way that you apparently can't accept. I thought you posted that you did not own any ope? But you now say 2 Chinese pieces? One thing I never did was ask you for advice, yet you have been overly generous in providing advice, even going the extra mile to advise where you were less than informed. Your helpful nature is noted

 

[Japanese]

Failure to keep the carb properly adjusted can lead to carbon/ash buildup on the valves... Not just a clogged spark arrestor.

I haven't had any 4-MIX engine. What is the difference b/w that carb vs 2-stroke carb? Also, what is the difference in the adjusting of each carb?

So, the seizing of your engine was caused not by piston rings or rod bearing but failed pushrod and shattered cam follower?

 

[lilspenny]

I haven't had any 4-MIX engine. What is the difference b/w that carb vs 2-stroke carb? Also, what is the difference in the adjusting of each carb?

So, the seizing of your engine was caused not by piston rings or rod bearing but failed pushrod and shattered cam follower?

Don't know the cause of seizure. The exhaust pushrod was out of place and the cam follower was in bits and pieces. Don't know what caused this. The valves were not damaged that I could tell. The engine was locked up but without removing the cam gear I could not tell if there was a frozen piston, wrist pin, etc .. The root cause is unknown by me. I did not get the chance to explore but to be honest I was just glad Stihl replaced the blower so I was ready to leave with the new one before the dealer and/or Stihl changed their mind. Could be a simple case of the pushrod just coming loose. ???. With a chainsaw, for example, the high speed screw needs to be a tad on the rich side. It will cause a slight sputter, but when put under a load it will smooth out. This will prevent overheating. With a 4-mix there is about 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn where max rpm can be had. I set in that zone but next to the too rich edge. Max rpm will still be achieved. With the low speed screw the 4-mix and 2 stroke are the same, at least in my experience. Two things to look for .. 1. A smooth idle 2. A smooth and powerful rpm acceleration off idle. After this is set, the rpm can be set with an adjustment of the throttle cable mechanism. A 4-mix has valves which causes some people to buy Echo or Husqvarna. I do not see that as a problem. It is advantageous on a string trimmer because the torque is greater at low rpm than a 2 stroke. This gives safer edging without slinging rocks.

 

[lilspenny]

Don't know the cause of seizure. The exhaust pushrod was out of place and the cam follower was in bits and pieces. Don't know what caused this. The valves were not damaged that I could tell. The engine was locked up but without removing the cam gear I could not tell if there was a frozen piston, wrist pin, etc .. The root cause is unknown by me. I did not get the chance to explore but to be honest I was just glad Stihl replaced the blower so I was ready to leave with the new one before the dealer and/or Stihl changed their mind. Could be a simple case of the pushrod just coming loose. ???. With a chainsaw, for example, the high speed screw needs to be a tad on the rich side. It will cause a slight sputter, but when put under a load it will smooth out. This will prevent overheating. With a 4-mix there is about 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn where max rpm can be had. I set in that zone but next to the too rich edge. Max rpm will still be achieved. With the low speed screw the 4-mix and 2 stroke are the same, at least in my experience. Two things to look for .. 1. A smooth idle 2. A smooth and powerful rpm acceleration off idle. After this is set, the rpm can be set with an adjustment of the throttle cable mechanism. A 4-mix has valves which causes some people to buy Echo or Husqvarna. I do not see that as a problem. It is advantageous on a string trimmer because the torque is greater at low rpm than a 2 stroke. This gives safer edging without slinging rocks.

I want to add to this reply by posting this pic. This is not my engine. I have no idea who the owner was/is. You can see the cam gear, with a metal device rubbing on each side of the cam lobe. Inside the compartment where the cam gear is, at the top of the compartment you can see the ends of the pushrods where they are actuated by the cam followers. The pushrod on the left "exhaust" had come out of socket and what was left inside that compartment looked like a violent reaction, breaking the exhaust cam follower into several pieces. The engine was locked. I suppose it's possible that the valve spring simply could not open and close quickly enough to prevent "floating" but that would be abnormal. So, who knows? The valves were not stuck and they were adjusted correctly prior to seizure. I mentioned previously that long term wot can deplete pooled oil in the crankcase. I know the engine was pretty hot despite the 50:1 mix of Maxima Super M Injector oil and 93 octane zero ethanol. The ratio was mixed accurately. So, was something wrong in the engine? Was the oil just not good enough despite Maxima's FD claim? I suspect that the FB FC FD lubrication standard is not high enough. Stihl says that the JASO standard is not acceptable for certain engines of today. In other words the lubrication standard is below what Stihl Ultra provides. I dislike Stihl Ultra because it runs dirty, but it runs very cool. I have measured that, as well as

.

I have run Stihl Ultra many times before and after the seizure, and not only does it run dirty but it stinks and I find that my br800 does not run well on it until quite warm. But .. it runs very cool. It lubricates well. It is "ashless" so valve deposits are minimized. So, is there a better oil for a Stihl 4-mix? I believe there are 4 oils that just might be.... Motorex Crosspower 2t, Maxima K2, Amsoil Saber, and Echo Red Armor. Of those 4 Motorex Crosspower 2t runs the best, imo.

 

[Japanese]

I want to add to this reply by posting this pic. This is not my engine.

I don't see any picture, besides the video.

Was the oil just not good enough despite Maxima's FD claim? I suspect that the FB FC FD lubrication standard is not high enough. Stihl says that the JASO standard is not acceptable for certain engines of today.

The JASO standart is mostly for smokiness and deposits. That is why racing 2-stroke oils are not JASO rated—Honda HP2 and Motul 800, for example. Mostly oils that will be used on the streets and around people are JASO rated and that is again because of the smokiness.
Also all JASO ratings after FB just run cleaner and with less smoke, but the lubrication and engine protection is the same as the FB.

I know the engine was pretty hot despite the 50:1 mix of Maxima Super M Injector oil and 93 octane zero ethanol. The ratio was mixed accurately. So, was something wrong in the engine.

So, the carb was run with the stock settings with the Maxima Super M oil and we completely exclude any lean carb adjustments in the engine failure?

I cannot comment on the video because the results are very close. It looks like that the Stihl Ultra run the coolest although it was the only one run at 50:1. I think all other oils should've been run at 50:1 as well and not at 40:1. That might be the reason the other oils run a bit hotter, especially Saber and Red Armor because those are the thickest of all.

Also those oils were run way too short. The engine work temp. is way above those degrees. I think 2-stroke engine head work temp. is about 350°F. So, that test doesn't say anything to me.

 

[ARB1977]

Amsoil saber at 80:1 for the last 8 years.

 

[lilspenny]

I don't see any picture, besides the video.


The JASO standart is mostly for smokiness and deposits. That is why racing 2-stroke oils are not JASO rated—Honda HP2 and Motul 800, for example. Mostly oils that will be used on the streets and around people are JASO rated and that is again because of the smokiness.
Also all JASO ratings after FB just run cleaner and with less smoke, but the lubrication and engine protection is the same as the FB.


So, the carb was run with the stock settings with the Maxima Super M oil and we completely exclude any lean carb adjustments in the engine failure?

I cannot comment on the video because the results are very close. It looks like that the Stihl Ultra run the coolest although it was the only one run at 50:1. I think all other oils should've been run at 50:1 as well and not at 40:1. That might be the reason the other oils run a bit hotter, especially Saber and Red Armor because those are the thickest of all.

Also those oils were run way too short. The engine work temp. is way above those degrees. I think 2-stroke engine head work temp. is about 350°F. So, that test doesn't say anything to me.

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I really do wish you could understand that a too lean fuel/air mix was not responsible for my br800 engine failure and that the mix ratio was an accurate 50:1. I was there, with a lifetime of experience and I am 69 years old. I've been dealing with ope since I was 12. What about you? Tell us. Tell us. Do you have 18 years as a landscaping business owner experience like I do. I doubt you do.
I think, from what I have seen, Saber performs best at 64:1. Red Armor and Stihl Ultra 50:1. That testing could have been better, yes. There are other tests on YouTube with similar results using 50:1 Red Armor and Saber. Even Amsoil Dominator. From my angle there are so many oils and so many possible mix ratios that it would take multiple machines and months or years to perform proper testing. One thing for sure... As of now there is no non-biased testing of 2 cycle oils that has managed to escape criticism from John Q. Public. So, my thinking is that at some point it becomes obvious to most sane individuals that certain oils are good. To see person after person after person test the same oils and get pretty much the same results and then see someone say those tests are BS is comical. First, there is no good scientific, non-biased, exhaustive testing of various 2 cycle oils out there that escapes criticism. Second, even if such testing was made public the naysayers would screech louder than those who would listen and take heed. Finally, fools will be fools. There will always be jacklegs who have run Dollar General 2 cycle oil and have never had engine failure and therefore to them Dollar General oil is the best. Some people simply will not listen, some think they are smarter than everyone else, hmmm hmmm they are what I call forum bullies. Okay... There have been several people who have tested various oils in chainsaws and they, as a whole, like Red Armor, Saber, Motul 800 of road, H1R, Dominator, and a few others. My testing has been limited to 2 Stihl br800 blowers. It is very possible to make a career out of testing 2 cycle oils. Such a person who tests those oils will get the same respect as a bubble gum scraper at Six Flags. Why? It 's like religion and politics. I can tell everyone how dirty Stihl Ultra runs, or how cool it runs... I can point to test after test on YouTube that says that... and it will tick people off. I can say that I get the best overall performance in my br800 with Motorex Crosspower 2T and very few people will pay attention. So, I'll say it now... I think, from my testing, that Motorex Crosspower 2T run at 40:1 is my favorite oil. It's not the cleanest, it's not the coolest, but factor in all things such as runability and smell along with good lubrication and low carbon, and good running temp and it is superb. I am just a simple guy with 18 years of professional landscaping experience and I have more time running ope than probably 95 percent of the world, I grew up as a child of a farm equipment dealer and we sold everything from chainsaws to combines and not only have I worked on all of those machines I have used them. I did not test oils in order to promote a brand. I just want to see what works best. The baseline oil for me is Stihl Ultra because I am testing oils in a Stihl br800. One day when I was using Stihl Ultra I whiffed the exhaust and saw the dirty piston and decided to search for a better oil. My testing is in a br800 only. In a blower the load will pretty much stay within a narrow range. Not vary a lot like other ope. I choose to look at the overall picture. Test after test by common people who wish to share their results, even if non-scientific should not be ignored. You know, God has chosen the poor of this world to inherit the kingdom of heaven. They may not be the smartest, or have superb testing skills, but they have a message that is worth a good listen. They have spoken over and over and have been ignored and/or critiqued by the keyboard warriors who insist on being dominant big shots. Why?