Noisy lifters some of the time: oil relation?

[dan3952]

Got a Honda 2.3 engine, 210,000 km which always makes noise on startup for a few minutes (I was told that it's an interference engine and this will always happen). Also, after coming to a stop at normal engine operating temperature, the lifters on occasion become noisy again, other times they are dead quiet.. is it because the oil pressure drops as the engine comes back down to idle speed? Is this normal? Does my oil choice with regard to dino vs. syn or weight make any difference? I was thinking they were a bit quieter with Mobil 1 before I switched back to dino 10W30 Pennzoil but maybe it's my imagination.

Perhaps I need a bit of valve lash adjustment but don't know it yet.. but they don't make noise all the time.

 

[John_K]

My old Dakota does this, it got a lot better when I went from Fram to Purolator oil filters years ago.

John

 

[Quest]

What car/car year is that?

Q.

 

[ThirdeYe]

Are you sure it's not noisy valves or fuel injectors? Just because it's an interference engine, it doesn't mean it should make noise at start-up. Could also be some mild piston slap.

 

[posty]

What model , year? Do you mean a 2.4?

 

[mechtech2]

An interference engine refers to the valves hitting the pistons if the cam timing belt or chain breaks. It has nothing to do with noise.
Do you have hydraulic valve adjusters? That could be the noise source, as well as loose mechanically adjustable types. Also fuel injectors can be quite loud at times.

 

[bmwtechguy]

Hopefully your issue is just a simple valve lash adjustment that needs done. I have heard a hydraulic lifter get noisy as the oil became contaminated with coolant due to a gasket issue, however this was not in a Honda engine.

Try a different oil filter next time to see if the noise becomes less or goes away. Find out if you have adjustable valve lash, or if you have hydraulic lash adjusters (lifters). If they are hydraulic and noisy, you could try Auto-RX, which can safely clean the lifters over time. It would be worth a try vs. engine work, which would be costly.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
210,000 km which always makes noise on startup for a few minutes (I was told that it's an interference engine and this will always happen).
Quote:
An interference engine refers to the valves hitting the pistons if the cam timing belt or chain breaks. It has nothing to do with noise.


While it won't explain the other times, soft piston deposits that produce audible noise for a few minutes after starting could be the cause. Now I imagine that an interference engine would make the condition more apparent than a non-interference engine.

It wouldn't explain the rest of his "issues".


Try something like Amsoil PI to see if the starting/lingering noise goes away.

 

[mechtech2]

'Interference engine' has absolutely nothing to do with this type of noise, nor could it.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
'Interference engine' has absolutely nothing to do with this type of noise, nor could it.


Agreed.

 

[Gary Allan]

I don't know how you can say that since you can't hear what he's hearing for "a few minutes". That is, if it was this condition (soft deposits on the piston that is a more contemporary issue) there would be the same valve hitting the soft deposit and the same noise for "a few minutes".

This condition is well documented ..but for all you know he's misinterpreting the noise as "valve clatter".

..and I need you to tell me how an engine that isn't interference would likely EVER have such a condition ... that is, the valve at full lift and never hit the piston vs. one that will assuredly hit the piston.

You need to say something more than "can't ain't".

 

[OVERKILL]

I know on an SBF that the MINIMUM clearance you want, using the stock rev limiter is 0.080 between the valve and the bottom of the relief in the piston. This includes radial clearance as well. If you have over 0.080 of soft deposits built-up, you have some serious issues.

I use this for an example because it's an interference motor and I know the spec. I believe the same spec is used for a GM smallblock.

As you increase the upper RPM limit, you need to increase this margin due to rod stretch and other factors.

 

[Gary Allan]

I'll try and find a better reference ..but this has been reported on this site by more than a few members and was in a presentation at the Amsoil regional meeting with the orientation for Amsoil PI. Before that, I didn't know what the heck the "would be piston slap that wasn't piston slap" people were talking about.

A condition known as Combustion Chamber Deposit Interference (CCDI) can also occur when the carbon deposits are so thick the deposits on the piston and head make physical contact. This area, known as the Squish Area (piston to top of chamber), has a clearance that is about as thick as a paper clip. This can cause a loud, metallic banging sound when a cold engine is first started. The deposits are soft and will gradually flake off. But the flakes may lodge between the valves and seats causing a loss of compression, misfiring and rough running when the engine is cold (a condition called Combustion Chamber Deposit Flaking or CCDF).

..but I guess this is impossible

http://www.aa1car.com/library/bad_gas2.htm

Here's a more valid source that you may respect

Combustion chamber deposit interference (CCDI) and combustion chamber deposit flaking (CCDF) are two other problems which sometimes occur in certain modern engine designs. CCDI is the result of physical contact between deposits on the piston top and cylinder head and is manifested as a loud, metallic banging sound when the engine is cold. CCDI is limited to the engines that have been designed primarily to reduce emissions, with minimal clearance—one millimeter or less—between some areas of the piston top and the cylinder head (squish areas) when the piston is at top dead center. Combustion chamber deposit flaking causes low-compression pressures to result due to improper sealing of the valves. This problem occurs when pieces of CCD flake off and end up lodged between the valve face and the valve seat. Typical symptoms of CCDF are difficulty in starting and rough running when cold.

Texaco

and how about those clowns at SAE.org?? Man I really bought into the whole scam

Abstract:
Recently, an audible clattering noise has been noticed in some vehicles during cold engine starts, mainly in the U.S. The clattering is referred to by various names, such as "carbon knock," "carbon rap," "mechanical knock" and "combustion chamber deposit interference (CCDI)." CCDI is believed to be caused by the deposit formation in the combustion chamber. In the research described here, CCDI was successfully reproduced in a 2.5-liter multipoint injection engine with a polyolefin amine gasoline additive. It was determined that the CCDI was caused by mechanical contact between the piston top and the cylinder head deposits. The vibration due to CCDI originated mainly at the thrust side of the piston right after top-dead-center on compression stroke and was characterized by a high frequency response.

Combustion chamber deposit (CCD) formation depends on many factors, including gasoline additives. It was confirmed that there is a close relationship between the ability of gasoline additives to decompose and their effect on CCD. Various analytical techniques were also utilized to characterize CCD.

http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/950741

 

[OVERKILL]

Gary:

I'm not saying it's impossible! (though the crown of the piston hitting the flat side of a traditional wedge chamber is not the same as the valve hitting an amassment of deposits in the relief, which as I said, sounds like a recipe for disaster) but that information definitely depicts engines I would have ZERO interest in owning.

My point was that it wasn't VALVES that were likely causing it. And the information you presented above seems to pretty much confirm that. I'm sorry, but I seriously find that stuff scary. I would never want clearance between parts to be as marginal as to create the issues depicted above. Emissions control has created some rather scary mechanical scenarios from the sounds of things.

What defines an interference engine is thus: The piston can smuck the valves if they valves were stuck open at TDC; the potential for interference to occur is always there, it is simply prevented by the timing of valve events. Something happens to prevent that timing from happening correctly and you have parts contacting parts they were never meant to contact.

There are a LOT of engines that fall into that category. I don't know how many designs/families are prone to the God-awful scenario depicted in the information you documented, but I have never owned nor wish to own any of them.

 

[Gary Allan]

I found it rather a violent and (would be) catastrophic like event too ..but the condition exists ..

If I appeared abrasive ..it some times occurs when I get spanked with authority when I'm describing something I know is FACT.

This happened to me when I was looking for the "beer commercial" version of Eric Clapton's "After Midnight". Nobody knew what I was talking about ..and I knew that I wasn't crazy enough, nor possessed the musical writing talent, to think it up on my own

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
I found it rather a violent and (would be) catastrophic like event too ..but the condition exists ..

If I appeared abrasive ..it some times occurs when I get spanked with authority when I'm describing something I know is FACT.

This happened to me when I was looking for the "beer commercial" version of Eric Clapton's "After Midnight". Nobody knew what I was talking about ..and I knew that I wasn't crazy enough, nor possessed the musical writing talent, to think it up on my own

I guess the matter of clarity was that it was the piston contacting carbon on the CHAMBER, not the VALVES. The latter of which (potential valve to piston contact) is what defines an interference engine of course.

And yes you came off harsh

 

[Gary Allan]

Well, one would reason that the deposits wouldn't just form in perfect harmony to allow the valve to miss out on this event. That would take some 'splainin' there. Although I will admit that there is no direct reference to it in my referenced text.

..but it clearly supports WHY I said what I said. Keep in mind that the OP has unexplained noise at start up that last a few minutes and HE believed that it was attributed to an interference configuration. You can also see how I integrated that into a (albeit flawed) "reasoning" while pointing out that the condition he described may be due to blah-blah blah.

We often lose sight of the real target in the discussion.


..but no hard feelings ...just because "umpteen" really = 6

 

[OVERKILL]

Well, FWIW (and in direct relation to your information), a compressed head gasket is ~0.038 (IIRC) for an SBF. Factory pistons are often 0.010+ out of the bores at TDC. That leaves 0.028 of clearance between the crown of the piston and the quench area of the head.

Contrast that to the AT MINIMUM 0.080 of clearance required (stock is MASSIVELY more than that; 0.200 I think with the stock HO cam) between the valves and their corresponding reliefs and it's pretty easy to see why interference would occur in the first scenario if things were tightened up even more (which is what the information you provided states with some engines due to emissions).

So, to get back to what we were discussing, I guess it would be MORE likely for it to be related to carbon build-up (and contact) due to the situation depicted in your reference material than what was originally implied; piston to valve contact.

I am curious as to whether this is actually the case! Sounds like a horribly flawed design, but from the data you provided, apparently not uncommon

 

[Gary Allan]

It may not be his condition ..but the symptoms would be the same for the event onset and duration. That's the only reason that I threw it out there. That is, although it has little to do with an interference engine ...it does have to do with interference in the engine.

It's also a byproduct of my Cliff Notes® manner in which I collect data. It's the finer details that aren't quite there. It's kinda like pronunciation if you're frum NooWinglan ..it's not quite right ..but you get the intent.

 

[OVERKILL]

Well at least this discussion facilitated the revision and enhancement of some of your Cliff Notes then

LMAO!!!!