No idea what the numbers on this Amsoil chart mean

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blakeinspace

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Is it OK to sound like a total noob on the first post?
Hope so!

In the stereo world there are all sorts of things that a total novice would not understand a thing about... important things... you know? SPL, freq, dB's, ohms, watts RMS/peak...

SOoo, I am looking at these Amsoil charts, right off their website. I am trying to see what the major differences between an $10/qt oil and a $7/qt (suggested retail) of oil is. It would be like trying to see which is a better speaker, Klipsch or Kenwood. Both are good, but why is one better than the other?

Here are the terms and numbers.
I was hoping a kind long timer would give me some layman explanations on these. Always interested in expanding my knowledge. It seems to impress the wife, and she has a knack of knowing when I am making something up.

The results (numbers) on the left are for Amsoil Series 2000 0w30. The results on the right are for Amsoil ASL 5w30.


Amsoil Series 2000 0w30 --- Amsoil ASL 5w30.
------------------------------------------------
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt (ASTM D-445)
11.2 ---- 10.6

Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt (ASTM D-445)
56.9 ---- 57.3

Viscosity Index (ASTM D-2270)
195 ---- 178

CCS Viscosity @ -30°C, cP (ASTM D-5293)
5520 ---- 5254

Pour Point °C (°F) (ASTM D-97)
-54 (-65) ---- -50 (-58)

Flash Point °C (°F) (ASTM D-92)
226 (439) ---- 228 (442)

Four Ball Wear Test
(ASTM D-4172B: 40 kgf, 75°C, 1200 rpm, 1 hr), Scar, mm
.39 ---- > 0.35

Noack Volatility, % weight loss (g/100g) (ASTM D-5800)
8.6 ---- 6.6

High Temperature/High Shear Viscosity
(ASTM D 4683 @ 150°C, 1.0 X 106 s.-1), cP
3.4 ---- 3.2

Total Base Number
> 11.0 ---- 12.2

----------------------------------------------

There you go, BTW, here are the links I was using:
https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/tso.aspx
https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/asl.aspx

Intuitively, it seems like some of those numbers, the cheaper oil is better... but that is why I ask.
I am savvy enough to understand pour & flash points
wink.gif


Hey, thanks in advance. I have learned a lot just browsing!
 
Some of the information on the Series 2000 0w30 is a little outdated. According to the most recent MSDS, https://www.amsoil.com/msds/tso.pdf:
Flash Point: 446 F (228 C)
Freezing Point (Pour Point): -60 F (-58 C)
Viscosity, cSt 100 C: 10.44
Viscosity, cSt 40 C: 56.39
Viscosity Index: 177
That's all the MSDS says, the website has not been updated since 2005.

Basically, it is a thinner viscosity 30 weight, very close to the ASL 5w30, and from recent UOA's, it does not show the thickening issue that plagued some of the older formulations.

Those specs alone will not demonstrate which is better in price. The 0w30 has been known to increase fuel efficiency, but it's not true in all applications.

I'd go with the ASL 5w30 if it's your first use of Amsoil.
 
The 0W30 is warranted for 35,000 miles normal or 17,500 miles severe or 1 year whichever occurs first.

The 5w30 is warranted for 25,000 miles normal or 15,000 miles severe or 1 year whichever occurs first.

This is all you really need to know.

Pick the oil which best relates to your driving and contact one of the site sponsors who can ship the oil direct to your house for less money. Also get the AMSOIL EaO oil filter which is warranted 25,000 miles normal, 15,000 miles severe or 1 year or whenever you change your oil, whichever occurs first.
 
Rather than expound on the typical properties of the oils - I'd rather take a look at the application - your vehicle, your proposed length between oil change (OCI), your driving style, etc.

For 90% of my customers the ASL is all they need and more. The TSO is really an all day, highway oil for engines in tip top shape.

And yes the product spec sheet on TSO is out of date.
 
The four ball wear tests for the Series 2000 and for the regular Amsoil 5w30/10w-30 are NOT performed under the same conditions...the Series 2000 test is much more severe:

S2000.........40kg @ 150C/302F and 1800 rpms for 1 hour

5w30/10w-30..40kg @ 75C/167F and 1200 rpms for 1 hour

What doesn't show up in bench test is that the TBN retention of the Series 2000 is significantly better than for the ASL/ATM formulations. Based on my 11 years of experience with all these products, the S2000 typically lasts approx 20% longer in service and provides a small increase in fuel efficiency compared to ASL and ATM. The S2000 also performs even better in terms of high temp deposit control over very long OCI's, although all three of these oils do very well in that respect.

I would say that in order to make the S2000 cost effective, you have to be willing to run OCI's of 12k-15k miles. If all you're looking for is to run slightly extended drains of 7.5k-12k OCI's, the regular 5w30/10w-30 are the way to go.

Note that Amsoil is now formulating the S2000 @ 10.4 Cst @ 100C, so it can be expected to "stay in grade" better over long OCI's....

TD
 
Quote:

The four ball wear tests for the Series 2000 and for the regular Amsoil 5w30/10w-30 are NOT performed under the same conditions...the Series 2000 test is much more severe:

S2000.........40kg @ 150C/302F and 1800 rpms for 1 hour

5w30/10w-30..40kg @ 75C/167F and 1200 rpms for 1 hour

Click to expand...


Ah yes, my apologies. You are exactly right. The variables of that test made huge difference on why there was a number discrepancy. I see now that the TSO was a MUCh more stressful test. Thanks! Hmmm... I tried to go back and edit my original post to put that correct info in and could not figure out how to do it... is there a way to edit one of your existing posts?

Quote:

What doesn't show up in bench test is that the TBN retention of the Series 2000 is significantly better than for the ASL/ATM formulations

Click to expand...


Ok... What is the 'TBN retention' mean?

Quote:

Amsoil is now formulating the S2000 @ 10.4 Cst @ 100C

Click to expand...


Here's another one... what does Cst mean?

Thanks again for your post. It did clear a few things up... but raised some others!
 
Quote:

Rather than expound on the typical properties of the oils -

Click to expand...


Wow Pablo... posted here a few times have we
tongue.gif

You are what I was after when I mentioned 'kind long timer'
to explain those numbers. I'd REALLY like to expound on the properties... please don't make me resort to wikipedia! You either get stuff written by a schmoe making a joke or a scientist trying to showcase every technical term they learned in college!... yet I use it all the time. I digress.

Quote:

I'd rather take a look at the application - your vehicle, your proposed length between oil change (OCI), your driving style, etc.

Click to expand...


Since you asked though... it is a used '06 Pontiac Gran Prix with the 5.3L LS4 'displacement-on-demand' v8. It has 12,000 miles on it. No idea what oil was in it before. The application will be 550mi per week (it's 52 miles to work... 1 way
frown.gif
) The car will see probably 20,000 miles a year. As for the OCI... I was thinking in the 15-25k range.
 
Quote:

Hmmm... I tried to go back and edit my original post to put that correct info in and could not figure out how to do it... is there a way to edit one of your existing posts?

Click to expand...

The edit button is broken, but there is a work-around:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...ge=0#Post738491

Quote:

Ok... What is the 'TBN retention' mean?

Click to expand...

TBN = Total Base Number. TBN retention is an indicator that the detergents and dispersants protecting your engine remain active throughout the drain interval.

Quote:

Here's another one... what does Cst mean?

Click to expand...

cSt = centistokes...a physical unit for kinematic viscosity. In layman's terms, it's the "thickness" of the oil. A larger cSt value = a thicker oil.
 
If you're wanting to get 15,000-20,000 mile oil changes on a V-8, I would suggests the Series 3000 5w30. Better additive package for dealing with contamination. If you do mainly highway driving, then you could probably get that same length with the Series 2000 0w-30. Do occasional UOA's regardless of oil choice, just to make sure you're safe to go those distances.
 
Quote:

I had a huge long reply typed out and this stupid idiotic forum lost it with that gawddoem message........

Click to expand...

When that happens to me (some message about the form expiring, or something like that) I just hit my browser's back button and I'm taken back to the form (where my message is still sitting). Cut the text to your clipboard, refresh that browser page, paste the text back into the message box, and hit the submit button. Works every time for me.
 
Amsoil Series 2000 0w30 --- Amsoil ASL 5w30.
------------------------------------------------
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt (ASTM D-445)
10.4 ---- 10.6

Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt (ASTM D-445)
56.4 ---- 57.3

Viscosity Index (ASTM D-2270)
177 ---- 178

CCS Viscosity @ -35/-30°C, cP (ASTM D-5293)
5520 ---- 5254

Pour Point °C (°F) (ASTM D-97)
-58 (-60) ---- -50 (-58)

Flash Point °C (°F) (ASTM D-92)
228 (446?) ---- 228 (442)

Four Ball Wear Test
S2000.........40kg @ 150C/302F and 1800 rpms for 1 hour

5w30/10w-30..40kg @ 75C/167F and 1200 rpms for 1 hour

Noack Volatility, % weight loss (g/100g) (ASTM D-5800)
8.6 ---- 6.6

High Temperature/High Shear Viscosity
(ASTM D 4683 @ 150°C, 1.0 X 106 s.-1), cP
3.4 ---- 3.2

Total Base Number
> 11.0 ---- 12.2


'06 Pontiac Gran Prix with the 5.3L LS4 'displacement-on-demand' v8. It has 12,000 miles on it. No idea what oil was in it before. The application will be 550mi per week (it's 52 miles to work... 1 way ) The car will see probably 20,000 miles a year. As for the OCI... I was thinking in the 15-25k range.

_________________________________________________________________

I am typing this for a second time (grrrrr) so please be patient with my brevity.

The viscosity and pour point numbers have been explained a bit, right?

http://www.infineum.com/information/api-viscosity-2004.html

Study this API/SAE chart for a bit – you can see where both oils fit and why they are called 0w30 or 5w30 because of their cold temp viscosity and their 100°C viscosity. TSO is slightly better at cold temps, but not important to your application.

Viscosity Index - The viscosity index (V.I.) of an oil is basically a number that indicates the effect of temperature changes on the viscosity of the oil. A low V.I. signifies a relatively large change of viscosity with changes of temperature. In other words, the oil becomes extremely thin at high temperatures and extremely thick at low temperatures. On the other hand, a high V.I. signifies relatively little change in viscosity over a wide temperature range. In a synthetic oil this is a great feature – the relatively (compared to conventional oil) higher VI number can be achieved without thickeners or pour point depressants (solvents).

Flash point - is somewhat important for used oil that may be gasoline loaded – but in reality doesn’t have much use in new high quality synthetic oil. A low flash point could indicate an oil that is loaded with solvent pour point depressants. The oils are equivalent.

Four ball wear has no direct relation to wear in a gasoline engine. The numbers are kind of fun to talk about, and sure less wear in the test may tend to indicate less wear in an engine – this test is not that repeatable and often debated.

NOACK VOLATILITY – This is a simulation of real engine conditions, on the simple. Upon reaching a certain temperature, oil will begin to lose some of its lighter weight molecules as they vaporize and leave heavier weight molecules behind. This is a very nasty cycle that was the death of many oils and engines in the 1960’s and 1970’s. The ASL is a great oil in this area, as all Amsoil oils are.

The High Temperature/High Shear - measures a lubricant's viscosity under severe high temperature and shear (stressed oil molecule cutting) in engines. It is important for a lubricant to maintain its protective viscosity under severe operating conditions. On paper the TSO is better here – but in reality either will be great for your engine.

NEW TBN – is simply put - a measurement by extracted titration with an acid, to the neutral point of the oil. It indicates the ability of the virgin oil to neutralize acids formed in the oil system. The difference between the two means very little in use. It’s the ability to retain the TBN – not the starting point. In my years of experience – it’s more the effect of the engine – i.e. in bad tune, short trips, wet harsh conditions that hammer the TBN – and it’s better to keep this conditions in mind and monitor a UOA (used oil analysis), than it is to select an oil with a high starting TBN.

I think the ATM and HDD and ACD also would be 3 better choices for your car and conditions. First change of whichever oil – don’t go beyond 10K without a UOA, Then 15K-20K should be doable. I also suggest an EAO oil filter.

I do look forward to doing business with you.
 
Quote:

Quote:

I had a huge long reply typed out and this stupid idiotic forum lost it with that gawddoem message........

Click to expand...

When that happens to me (some message about the form expiring, or something like that) I just hit my browser's back button and I'm taken back to the form (where my message is still sitting). Cut the text to your clipboard, refresh that browser page, paste the text back into the message box, and hit the submit button. Works every time for me.

Click to expand...


Me too - this time I went back and it was blank - no matter what I did - blank. Dummy me - usually when I type long 'ens I type them in an email or word and copy 'n paste - this time I didn't...........YIKES!!!
 
Thanks Andy H... I went to do what that thread suggested about editting... and was thwarted with this.

Quote:

This post can no longer be edited because the maximum edit time has expired

Click to expand...


It's okay... that information was corrected in the thread, and that is what is important.

As an aside, I editted this post, and my big one below responding to Pablo, and the trick worked great... just guess there is a time limit!
 
Last edited:
Quote:

I think the ATM and HDD and ACD also would be 3 better choices for your car and conditions. First change of whichever oil – don’t go beyond 10K without a UOA,

Click to expand...


Had to type it twice, huh? I'm surprised... I often want to plant a fist through the monitor when that happens to me
mad.gif
That being the case, I am on monitor #17... j/k.

May I ask why you are recommending oil formulated for Diesels? Although I like that on that HDD oil...

Website says it reduces oil consumption, and I have heard that while the GM LSx motors are excellent motors, that they have been prone to oil consumption. Don't know that first hand... yet. Maybe mine will have been built on a Wednesday... though it is Canadian...
canada.gif
well at least the frame was assembled there... motor probably came from Mexico... what? No Latino smilie? how prejudiced!

I have observed that the motor will spend most of its' commute time in the 1800-2200 rpm range. Not saying that it won't see 6500rpm's and WOT ever... as a matter of fact... this is in 2 weeks for me:
http://www.alamocityshootout.com
But there is the general idea of where the car will spend the bulk of it's run time. With such long commute (I know, shouldn't have gotten a v8)... improved gas mileage will be a plus. All of this literature I have been reading indicated that is one of the benefits. GM recommends 5w30, FWIW.

So diesel oil, huh?
Also, would one want to see a higher TBN over a lower TBN?
Also, (mind reader) thanks for telling me what a 'UAO' is. A previous poster mentioned that... and I thought maybe they mispelled 'UFO' or somesuch. How much does that run ($$), and what results is one looking for? Particle count maybe?... I would think that is more a function of the filter.
 
If I am getting the gist of this...

I think that one would want a high(er) VI (Viscosity Index) number, meaning more stability through a greater temperature range.

Furthermore, one would want a number with a low(er) Noack Volatilty. The lower that number... the less oil consumption.

Hey, If I am wrong, LMK. One of the best ways to learn is to ask questions, repeat answers, and make mistakes! (hopefully only once on the latter!)
 
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