Nitrile ADBV vs Silicon ADBV

[BlueOvalFitter]

My truck has always had a MC FL-400s oil filter on it since day 1. (6 miles) There was one time I had a local tire store do an oil change and they used a NAPA ProSelect oil filter,with the nitrile ADBV.After startup my engine rattled so bad I thought my teeth would fall out.I replaced it with a MC FL-400s filter.
Why is it the filters with the Silicon ADBV don't make the engine rattle like a nitrile ADBV? Is it because the heat does not affect the silicon as much as nitrile,and the silicon maintains its form to seal better to keep oil in the filter for startup? Opinions and facts are greatly appreciated.

 

[bourne]

Its actually the colder temps where the difference comes out. Nitrile gets stiffer as the temp drops while the silicone adbv remains pliable till much colder temps allowing for proper retention of oil in the filter.

 

[KCJeep]

And there's more to it than just the ADBV, I've had plenty of silicone ADBV filters rattle on me, so filter design definitely comes into play as well.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: bourne
Its actually the colder temps where the difference comes out. Nitrile gets stiffer as the temp drops while the silicone adbv remains pliable till much colder temps allowing for proper retention of oil in the filter.

Basically,the silicone ADBV works just as good,better,or the same,in heat as in cold?

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
And there's more to it than just the ADBV, I've had plenty of silicone ADBV filters rattle on me, so filter design definitely comes into play as well.

That was going to be my next q? KCJ,are you in my head?

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

I've noticed filters have either a coil spring or leaf spring.Does that play a part in which the ADBV works?

 

[cp3]

Here was my look at it.

After some more reflection and my introduction to the blow/suck test I wonder if there is more to it. I think maybe the original fit of the ADBV to the base plate may be as much of a concern here. Realisticly, the valve will be to some extent heated up when the engine is shut down so pliability of the material should be fine and allow the valve to close. Plastics and rubbers want to return to their original shape, if that original shape provides a good seal with the base plate, it shouldn't matter if it is cold or warm. At that point, pliability may be more of a concern at start up and relate to the ADBV opening as it should.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: cp3
Here was my look at it.

After some more reflection and my introduction to the blow/suck test I wonder if there is more to it. I think maybe the original fit of the ADBV to the base plate may be as much of a concern here. Realisticly, the valve will be to some extent heated up when the engine is shut down so pliability of the material should be fine and allow the valve to close. Plastics and rubbers want to return to their original shape, if that original shape provides a good seal with the base plate, it shouldn't matter if it is cold or warm. At that point, pliability may be more of a concern at start up and relate to the ADBV opening as it should.

I did a google search on this subject and it did not show your post.That was great reading.Thanx!

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
I've noticed filters have either a coil spring or leaf spring.Does that play a part in which the ADBV works?


Not likely. Spring pressure is pressure and it really doesn't come into play for ADBV operation.

To be honest, I'm at a loss as to why everyone else seems to have trouble with this. I wrenched for 20 years and have been deeply involved in the automotive biz in other ways for the next 20 years. I've heard it once or twice but only on old cars with filters that had been on there a while. I've never owned a car that had this trouble. Ever. I've use every type/brand of filter from the cheapest junk to the most expensive. My 5.4L Ford has never done it with any of the filters used on it.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
I've noticed filters have either a coil spring or leaf spring.Does that play a part in which the ADBV works?


Not likely. Spring pressure is pressure and it really doesn't come into play for ADBV operation.

To be honest, I'm at a loss as to why everyone else seems to have trouble with this. I wrenched for 20 years and have been deeply involved in the automotive biz in other ways for the next 20 years. I've heard it once or twice but only on old cars with filters that had been on there a while. I've never owned a car that had this trouble. Ever. I've use every type/brand of filter from the cheapest junk to the most expensive. My 5.4L Ford has never done it with any of the filters used on it.

Jim,i'm not discrediting your automotive exp.but that NAPA PS oil filter "DID" cause my engine to rattle upon startup,both cold and hot.I even cut one open and posted it here.Some even said it looked like a great filter and would use it. I can't explain it. Maybe that one filter they installed was bad.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
And there's more to it than just the ADBV, I've had plenty of silicone ADBV filters rattle on me, so filter design definitely comes into play as well.


Agreed, and I've had plenty of nitrile ones not rattle. Back when I had my LTD, any ADBV was a welcome bonus, and the nitrile ADBV on the MC or AC filter made a major difference. Either way, I've been lucky and had no problems with either type of ADBV over the years.

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
I've noticed filters have either a coil spring or leaf spring.Does that play a part in which the ADBV works?


Not likely. Spring pressure is pressure and it really doesn't come into play for ADBV operation.

To be honest, I'm at a loss as to why everyone else seems to have trouble with this. I wrenched for 20 years and have been deeply involved in the automotive biz in other ways for the next 20 years. I've heard it once or twice but only on old cars with filters that had been on there a while. I've never owned a car that had this trouble. Ever. I've use every type/brand of filter from the cheapest junk to the most expensive. My 5.4L Ford has never done it with any of the filters used on it.

Jim,i'm not discrediting your automotive exp.but that NAPA PS oil filter "DID" cause my engine to rattle upon startup,both cold and hot.I even cut one open and posted it here.Some even said it looked like a great filter and would use it. I can't explain it. Maybe that one filter they installed was bad.

Not picking on you in particular here, BlueOval, just noting the volume of these reports (yours and many others) and the lack of the same volume of experience in my 45 years of playing with engines. Lotta potential reasons to explain that and I haven't cogitated on the most likely one. It's just .... notable to me.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
I've noticed filters have either a coil spring or leaf spring.Does that play a part in which the ADBV works?


Not likely. Spring pressure is pressure and it really doesn't come into play for ADBV operation.

To be honest, I'm at a loss as to why everyone else seems to have trouble with this. I wrenched for 20 years and have been deeply involved in the automotive biz in other ways for the next 20 years. I've heard it once or twice but only on old cars with filters that had been on there a while. I've never owned a car that had this trouble. Ever. I've use every type/brand of filter from the cheapest junk to the most expensive. My 5.4L Ford has never done it with any of the filters used on it.

Jim,i'm not discrediting your automotive exp.but that NAPA PS oil filter "DID" cause my engine to rattle upon startup,both cold and hot.I even cut one open and posted it here.Some even said it looked like a great filter and would use it. I can't explain it. Maybe that one filter they installed was bad.

Not picking on you in particular here, BlueOval, just noting the volume of these reports (yours and many others) and the lack of the same volume of experience in my 45 years of playing with engines. Lotta potential reasons to explain that and I haven't cogitated on the most likely one. It's just .... notable to me.


Maybe it's poor quality control? Cheaper materials? Slicker oil?

 

[cp3]

Oddly, I think I have heard this happen more in the G5 with the cartridge filter and an block ADB than in the G6 with the filter mounted ADBV.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter

Basically,the silicone ADBV works just as good,better,or the same,in heat as in cold?


Silicone is better for BOTH hot and cold environments. I always go with silicone ADBV if I can.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
I've noticed filters have either a coil spring or leaf spring.Does that play a part in which the ADBV works?


No. The spring you are talking about pushes the filter guts up tight against the base plate. It's possible that IF the spring was defective and let all the guts rattle around, then there could be an ADBV operational issue.

 

[dnewton3]

Start up rattle is an annoyance; we all understand that. Same general annoyance as piston slap on forged pistons, until they come up to temp. Etc etc.

But I've never known an engine to rattle itself into an early grave. Valve train clatter is yet another topic I feel is over-blown, from a standpoint of longevity.

Nitrile is not as robut when it comes to the resistance of thermal cycling. It's not just heat or cold, but the constant cycling between the two that ages the nitrile more quilkly than it does with silicone.

If you put on a new filter with a nitrile valve, and it rattles, I would say it's much more likely to be a production quality issue (something not seated correctly) that allows the oil to bleed back down, than it is related to the ADBV material itself. Or, maybe there is a defect in the ADBV (hole)?


I rarely put much faith in any complaint that cannot be duplicated with experimentation, and specifically cannot be manipulated into and out of existience. IOW - can you duplicate the rattle results with several new filters, going back and forth between them, by putting them on successively? I ask because you mention you have only had one filter that ever had a nitrile ADBV; how do you know it was a repeatable event? Could you have got a bad Napa PS filter, and you're blaming the material in error?

Finally, I have an example of just the opposite happening. Recently put on a Purolator Classic on my wife's van. It rattled for about a week at every start up, but I didn't change it. Now, the noise is gone. Perhaps the material finally seated? I don't know. I just know I can no longer make the noise appear, regardless of how long it sits. I have no decent explanation to it, but it does show the variability of the topic.

Point being, there could be two potential causes to the noise.
1) material capability
2) product flaw

You really don't know which it is until you can recreate the issue with true ability to manipulate the results. One filter that makes a noise is no reason to celebrate or condemn a product.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
I've noticed filters have either a coil spring or leaf spring.Does that play a part in which the ADBV works?


No. The spring you are talking about pushes the filter guts up tight against the base plate. It's possible that IF the spring was defective and let all the guts rattle around, then there could be an ADBV operational issue.

Ah ha! That could have been the case in the NAPA PS filter on my engine.

 

[ZeeOSix]

BlueOvalFitter - what's your vehicle after an oil and filter change when the filter is bone dry on initial start-up?

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
BlueOvalFitter - what's your vehicle after an oil and filter change when the filter is bone dry on initial start-up?

I don't understand the q?. I always fill my filter with oil before it is installed.