New Microguard Ad.

[nthach]

If it's cheaper than a Fram, it's a decent buy.

And I'm thinking Honeywell has R&D in Ohio due to the Bendix legacy. And the fact that Honda, GM, Ford and Mopar have operations there.

 

[labman]

I think I can get a genuine Orange box at Wally's for the same price.

 

[severach]

Originally Posted By: Tim H.

Actually, it makes sense. The fibre media is porous, unlike metal. porous material will allow adhesive to 'sink in' better. Metal, being non-porous, will not.

Theoretically yes. If this were a problem we'd see lots of metal endcaps coming unglued. I ain't no Fram button pusher but this doesn't seem to be a problem.

 

[Sayjac]

Even if the porosity fiber endcap theory is accurate, the centertube is still made of metal not fiber and it too must also seal to the fiber endcaps. As river rats and widman's pics posted below show, and has been mentioned the fiber is much more prone to become deformed with use and not seal at the endcap centertube junction.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/1748513/
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/1748513/

And one last set of recently posted pics showing the endcaps after only 3.5k, especially the top view.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/1748513/

 

[labman]

Originally Posted By: severach
Originally Posted By: Tim H.

Actually, it makes sense. The fibre media is porous, unlike metal. porous material will allow adhesive to 'sink in' better. Metal, being non-porous, will not.

Theoretically yes. If this were a problem we'd see lots of metal endcaps coming unglued. I ain't no Fram button pusher but this doesn't seem to be a problem.


Perhaps we need to be taking closer looks. I was very disappointed with River Rat's reports about brand new Wix filters leaking. I had been wondering if it would be worth while to pay the extra for Wix to get the thread end bypass. Now I am not so sure.

Maybe by the next time I buy a filter for my truck I can find an Ecore. If I stretch my OCI to a year with the Mobil 1, I could cough up for a Hastings.
Originally Posted By: sayjac
Even if the porosity fiber endcap theory is accurate, the centertube is still made of metal not fiber and it too must also seal to the fiber endcaps.


Huh? The center tube is designed to have oil flow through it and therefore doesn't need to be sealed to anything. Some of them don't even run the full length of the media. It is just there to support the media. The end caps do need to seal to the base plate and dome end leaf spring to keep oil from leaking into the center.

 

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted By: labman
Huh? The center tube is designed to have oil flow through it and therefore doesn't need to be sealed to anything. Some of them don't even run the full length of the media. It is just there to support the media. The end caps do need to seal to the base plate and dome end leaf spring to keep oil from leaking into the center.
What are you talking about? If the the endcaps warp or otherwise aren't sealed and expose the centertube as in riverats pic that's bypass all the time, and no leaf spring stops that from leaking.

And in case you forgot, the ones that don't run the whole length like the Denso are attached at the center tube.

 

[Herz]

heres a couple STs that i have cut open that seal over the center cage.

 

[ThirdeYe]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
Originally Posted By: labman
Huh? The center tube is designed to have oil flow through it and therefore doesn't need to be sealed to anything. Some of them don't even run the full length of the media. It is just there to support the media. The end caps do need to seal to the base plate and dome end leaf spring to keep oil from leaking into the center.
What are you talking about? If the the endcaps warp or otherwise aren't sealed and expose the centertube as in riverats pic that's bypass all the time, and no leaf spring stops that from leaking.

And in case you forgot, the ones that don't run the whole length like the Denso are attached at the center tube.

That picture looks familiar.

Some of the other Frams I've cut open turned out perfect, while this one looked like it was stepped on at the factory! In my opinion, filters with steel endcaps have a better ADBV design, typically. When I open E-Cores however, I feel like the ADBV makes a better seal because I've never seen the endcaps warp like they sometimes do on Frams.

 

[Herz]

In my experience the ecore end caps are a bit thicker and stronger.

 

[Sayjac]

Yes, good pics and you can see the difference, even than the other cut open Fram thread you posted. And IIRC, the top and bottom of the nylon cage where it meets/joins the felt endcaps has some width to it. As opposed to the Fram which is slim metal tube meeting at the top and bottom fiber endcaps. I won't use the term joined, because they many times don't appear to be.

While I still prefer metal endcap design, IMO, the Ecore design is superior to the Honeywell design.

 

[Propflux01]

Originally Posted By: labman
Oh, please. The seal between the filter element and nitrile seal has nothing to do with oil draining out of the engine and filter. That seal is between the ADBV and the steel end plate.
I wasn't talking about sealing to the fibre media, i was talking about it (nitrile ADBV)sealing to the top of the filter (the metal part with the threads on it). Thats where the oil leaks out if the nitrile seal is not lined up to seal with that metal part. If that makes sense.

 

[chevrofreak]

Originally Posted By: defektes
In my experience the ecore end caps are a bit thicker and stronger.


I've been very impressed with the E-core PF-52 equivalent (ST3980) when I've cut them open. There are tons of pleats, and they're all even. The cage is tough, and the fiber endcaps are well bonded. The only complaint I have is that the engine rattles on startup with them, but it doesn't with a Wix filter.

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: chevrofreak

I've been very impressed with the E-core PF-52 equivalent (ST3980) when I've cut them open. There are tons of pleats, and they're all even. The cage is tough, and the fiber endcaps are well bonded. The only complaint I have is that the engine rattles on startup with them, but it doesn't with a Wix filter.


Wonder why ... does that E-core PF-52 have a bypass valve or not? ... I'm guessing not if for a GM product.

 

[labman]

PF 52's do not call for an ADBV. You get what you pay for? So far Wix has escaped my hacksaw and tape measure. Perhaps it is better than the ST selling for half as much. I know in the past, AC's had more media than the Champ brands and various ones made by Purolator. Maybe WIX does too. Or maybe the lack of rattle is due to better flow due to the leaks River Rat reported.

Or about the time you changed oil a little dirt got in the built in ADBV or you were just more attentive to a cheaper filter.

 

[webfors]

Agree on the Ecore. If I had to choose between a fram or an ecore (assuming it has an adbv) the Ecore wins me over. It's a solid design when compared to the fram when you look close.

 

[Herz]

Heres a wix pf52
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...430#Post1633430

and here is a ST3980 ecore
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...724#Post1734724

The only guess I have is the ST is probably more restrictive than the Wix casuing a little noise. Temps never drop below 15 here so I cant say I dont have noise on cold starts.

 

[severach]

Originally Posted By: labman
I was very disappointed with River Rat's reports about brand new Wix filters leaking.

New product defects are a problem on the production line. The quality test equipment isn't working or the employees are slacking off. Engineered media or not Fram has plenty of reported product defects.

When used in volume it doesn't seem to me that either metal or media endcaps are coming unglued.

 

[chevrofreak]

Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: chevrofreak

I've been very impressed with the E-core PF-52 equivalent (ST3980) when I've cut them open. There are tons of pleats, and they're all even. The cage is tough, and the fiber endcaps are well bonded. The only complaint I have is that the engine rattles on startup with them, but it doesn't with a Wix filter.


Wonder why ... does that E-core PF-52 have a bypass valve or not? ... I'm guessing not if for a GM product.


Neither the Super Tech nor the AC Delco (Wix) have bypasses, but the AC Delco does have a silicone ADBV. The engine is a DOHC V6 that appears to be prone to rattle much like the Ford modular V8's.

 

[postjeeprcr]

Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
I would think a filter made in the US would say that. I'm thinking "North America" is code for another North American country.

Less pleats is better?

Looks like bullet items have been created for each BITOG filter hangup.


I agree, it is interesting how they directly address all the hangups people have on here about Fram filters. I like how they do it.

 

[postjeeprcr]

Originally Posted By: addyguy
Originally Posted By: sayjac
What a bunch of tripe! Nothing bonds better to fiber media than fiber endcap.

Prove it. Where's the data showing that to be true? Why does every high line and/or extended OCI filter, inluding Fram's(XG), have metal endcaps? Anyone can make a claim.

The filter in the upper left hand corner doesn't even look like the cut open Microgard in the other thread. It actually looks to be a thread end bypass. It's strangely similar to another high line filter, previously posted here. I have to search when I get a chance, but it looks like they copied another filter's pic. IMO, the cut open illustration looks bogus.

As for the efficiency, same old Fram ambiguoius level. 94% at > 20mu. That could mean, any size greater than 20. Could be 30, 40, 50mu,...

And someone is telling a tale or mistaken on the other thread. O'R says the old Microgard is 93.8%, using the same ISO test. The new expert says it was only 88%. Again though, there's no micron level.

Bottom line, numbers aside, I prefer the Purolator constructed Microgard, and all Fram propoganda won't change that. And, it doesn't change my opinion that the orange can is overpriced.


So you know better than the people who designed/built this filter? Do you work in filter production?


Of course he does, just like all the others on here who push Purolator products as the end all be all products in filtration.