New Honda Odyssey Break In oils & OCI Questions

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: scoobie
5w20 oil runs better when cold, it will be significantly thinner at start up time than 5w30, which is when most wear occurs.
go to the website of the oil manufacturer that you wish to use, and compare the cold properties of 5w20 vs 5w30. the thinner oil also flows better at normal operating conditions, and with faster flow, the oil is better able to cool the engine. engine oil is extremely important for engine cooling, the 30 weight will flow slower, and the engine will not be cooled as well. also check the Interesting Articles forum on this site, and read Dr. Haas's course on oil viscosity. Most people here have discovered that Dr. Haas's conclusions have been borne out, with impressive UOA.
My vehicle is specced for 5w30, but I mix 50:50 5w20 to benefit from the thinner viscosity.

I wouldn't argue if you wanted to fortify the 5w20 by mixing it 50:50 with 5w30. however, just running straight 5w30 would be too thick in my view. And be sure to review the manufacturer's website for the ACTUAL measured viscosity, because the permitted range of 30 weight is pretty wide, and I would stay away from anything over about 10.6 or 10.8.


I put no faith in a UOA determining wear besides detecting an outright failure. It can only detect a certain size of particle. If the thin oil is causing more wear in the form of larger particles, it will not show up in the UOA. Until I see an engine teardown, I won't believe running the thin stuff in a car spec'd for a 50 or 60 weight won't cause excessive wear.

 

[momomeister]

Originally Posted By: Va Runner
Just purchased a new 2008 Honda Odyssey with the 3.5 liter. Great year-end deal on a leftover '08 with 6 miles !!

Honda & the owners' manual recommends the use of 5w20 oil. I am concerned about using the 5w20 oil as I viewed them as being too light and not necessary in the mild Virginia climate. Do they provide adequate protection in the heat of Summer??

I notice in the Honda owners manual that they have an indicator that signals when to have the oil changed. In the past, I have utilized the OCI pattern of 500 / 1500 / 3000 miles on my new vehicles. I plan to do the same with my new Honda unless other "BITOGers" have reasons not to. I'll start with dino oil and change over to Pennzoil Platinum at approx 12,000 miles.

Thanks in advance for your explanations and suggestions.


We have a 2006 Odyssey EX.

Follow the owner's manual and don't change out the factory oil until the MID tells you to. Then follow the MID with respect to OCI. I've been changing it anywhere from 30% left to when the MID is blinking telling me it's due for service and I change oil in November and May religiously. I don't want to change oil in the middle of the winter in northern NJ.

Now as for oil viscosity, I was using M1 5w-20 with the Honda filter. This past November, I put in M1 0w-20 with the M1 filter.

 

[cheetahdriver]

Originally Posted By: BuickGN
What's with this ease of pumping ****? As long as the oil flows, pressure is nearly instant.


i suppose you have never heard of the bypass valve on the constant volume oil pump the car uses?

or seen the 0w10 OA for the JEEP engine that is on the site?

as honda has CAFE beat all the way to breakfast already, i doubt the xw20 recommendation is just so they can make GM look worse (not that it wouldn't be easy to do).

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: cheetahdriver
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
What's with this ease of pumping ****? As long as the oil flows, pressure is nearly instant.


i suppose you have never heard of the bypass valve on the constant volume oil pump the car uses?

or seen the 0w10 OA for the JEEP engine that is on the site?

as honda has CAFE beat all the way to breakfast already, i doubt the xw20 recommendation is just so they can make GM look worse (not that it wouldn't be easy to do).


Honda does not have CAFE beat. I'm not sure where this is coming from.

I'm fully aware of the pressure relief valve on the pump. I'm sure it's probably in relief on a cold start. This is not a bad thing. My Buick stays on the pressure relief driving 70mph down the freeway fully hot. It's normal.

I put no weight in UOAs for wear.

 

[Liquid_Turbo]

BuickGN:

Have a read at Honda's study of 0w20 oil in place of 5w30 oil.

http://cid-ada1e19227939272.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Public/SAE 0w20.pdf

Yes, you are correct "more wear" is present, but it is ever so slight that it is virtually negligible. Out with the old, in with the new. Didn't people react similarly when 5w30 became the norm?




Original Poster: Just use 5w20 with full confidence! Plenty of UOA shows it is more than adequate. If your minivan suffers catastrophic engine failure using 5w20 and the diagnosis is that you should have used 5w30, I'll buy you a new engine

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: Liquid_Turbo
BuickGN:

Have a read at Honda's study of 0w20 oil in place of 5w30 oil.

http://cid-ada1e19227939272.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Public/SAE 0w20.pdf

Yes, you are correct "more wear" is present, but it is ever so slight that it is virtually negligible. Out with the old, in with the new. Didn't people react similarly when 5w30 became the norm?




Original Poster: Just use 5w20 with full confidence! Plenty of UOA shows it is more than adequate. If your minivan suffers catastrophic engine failure using 5w20 and the diagnosis is that you should have used 5w30, I'll buy you a new engine


Thank you. This is all I wanted and this is all I've been saying.

Wear is acceptable with 0w-20, but there is still more wear than with the 5-30. 0w-20 is used for fuel economy.

For people like me that plan on going half a million miles, I choose the 10-30 which most likely widens the gap from the 0w-20.

It would've been nice if there was a rod/main bearing wear test thrown in there too.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: scoobie
Not really JHZR2 - 5w20 is much thinner cold that 5w30 - just look at the manufacturer's data for the cold properties, such as at -30 or -35. it's also different at 100C, but those differences are slight, and again quite variable depending on the manufacturer.
that's the reason i always recommend looking at the manufacturer's data sheet before deciding.

The thinner oil pumps better at all temperatures, even in those where the owner of the New Odyssey lives.


But again, so what? Look at the Honda SAE paper linked to above. It is a great example. On the basis of flow and protection, the 0w- oil, by merit of being able to flow better at all conditions, being able to be pump easier under all conditions, etc., should have protected better in this test. After all, we are dealing with an HTHS viscosity of 2.6 for the 0w-20 vs 2.9 for the 5w30 and a viscosity of 3050 at -30 for the 0w-20 vs. 2680 at -25C for the 5w30 (which is probably going to behave approximately to 5000-5500 cP at -30).

Obviously the 0w-20 should be better in every way. Most wear occurs at startup, right? A 0w-20 will flow better at all conditions, and thus protect better, right? Well, in reality, the differences per the SAE papers (and my claims) is that it is splitting hairs.

Sure, PYB 5w20 is 5100cP at -30, while PYB 5w30 is 5800cP at -30. But I still maintain that this makes precious little difference. Both lubes will not be present in large quantity for the initial microseconds at startup. Therefore, in the most critical initial seconds, both will wear effectively the same. One will pump faster, but the practical benefit of this is what? One may reach somewhere sooner, while the other may build pressure sooner. Again, this is all splitting hairs.

The SAE paper claims little benefit, I claim little benefit. THe goal we intend is the same, but until the underlying units of viscosity: kg*m^−1*s^−1 and mm^2·s-1 are actually translated to their relevance for an operating engine with forces present in the x, y, z and theta, r and z coordinates, both in three-dimensional space in various places inside an engine, I do not think that anybody is qualified to make any claims whatsoever for what is better. There are too many variables to take into consideration, including expansion and contraction upon heating and cooling. I cannot make any assumptions, including the fact that the 13% difference between 5100 and 5800 cP at -30C is any more or less important than the 20% difference between 8.4 and 10.5 cSt at 100C (for PYB 5w-20 and 5w30 respectively) without a full, intimate understanding of the actual MEANING of the units and their relationship to an operational surface and then engine.

All that we do have is data such as the SAE paper posted above, and other data elsewhere, which tends to show excellent wear rates and negligible differences between oils that are of lower viscosity, better flow characteristics (either based upon specced viscosity or syn/conventional makeup) for many applications and operations where more or less the correct viscosity and range were chosen. Meanwhile, there is also data from Chevron, for example, which shows that for heavy duty and heavily-used engines (e.g. diesels), that a typical 5 or 10w30 will not protect as well as the 15w40, and in fact these issues are why they are slow to bring 10w30 and 5w30 oils to market. Different application, generally small test rigs, not engines, etc., but still potentially questionable to finding a complete conclusion based upon viscosity and flow. Borderline contradictory to the Honda results (Honda did show ever so slightly greater wear with the 0w-20), but different engine design, no real numbers to compare for the Chevron results, and a notionally different usage profile... which if nothing else highlights why UOA is critical to finding the best lubricant for each users' driving and usage profile.

Neither our knowledge, analytical work nor testing are good enough to discern anything else, for the most part. It is merely splitting hairs for most common use vehicles that do not see any extraordinary use. So while I agree with you that you want to use the lightest lubricant possible that still minimizes wear, we can both go too crazy trying to make differences of numbers that have little practical difference, and also begin walking a line that enters into the ability to induce undesired wear if applied too broadly. Tread carefully.

 

[scoobie]

Most of the thick oil at startup actually goes through the bypass valve back to the engine oil sump and not into your engine oil ways. instantaneous oil flow throughout the engine is not guaranteed. but...
Essentially i must agree with your excellent post, basically in that setting, it is likely that there will be absolutely no practical difference in the 20 vs 30. in my case the -20 and -30 does actually occur, so i am a bit more sensitive about it.
so rather than split hairs, i suggest a compromise, and run 5w25. synthetic for good measure.
(which happens to be exactly what i do - i am not sure, both sides make valid argument, the truth is in there somewhere, so i just split the difference instead of splitting the hair)

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: scoobie
Most of the thick oil at startup actually goes through the bypass valve back to the engine oil sump and not into your engine oil ways.


You've actually installed the necessary equipment to monitor the volume of oil that leaves the pump vs the volume of oil that leaves the bypass or are you just making up facts again?

Bearing clearances, journal design and size, bypass pressure, gallery size...etc all play roles. But that matters little to you I'm sure.

I tell ya what scoobs, when you've got the same mileage on your junk that I've got in mine, have actually taken it apart and witnessed what it looks like inside and can subsequently backup your claims with FACTUAL data, then perhaps your claims might have some merit. Until then, your argument with people like BuickGN holds ZERO merit because he's DONE that, and you have NOT.

I don't care if you are right or wrong. The problem is you have ZERO DATA. You have NO FACTUAL BASIS for your claims or statements and are contradicting people who DO have factual data and EXPERIENCE and you are getting on their nerves. I'm sure you cannot be oblivious to the reputation you have developed on this.... can you?

You are fighting experience with conjecture. It's a losing battle.

 

[Pablo]

We have an Ody, 2006.

Nothing but 5W-20 or 0W-20 since day one. Following the OLM, except one time I went 2X the OLM, with a great UOA.

No real need to think about using a viscosity outside what the manufacturer recommends.

 

[06VtecV6]

Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: cheetahdriver

as far as the 5w20, use it with confidence. running a thicker oil in a honda is counterproductive, a good 5w20 with service as the indicator shows will result in the engine outlasting the body...


Please, tell me how going to a 30wt in a Honda is counterproductive in a mild climate. If you actually had any experience, you would know there was no measurable decrease in fuel economy and surprisingly the car felt stronger when in VTEC.

The engine will last a long time on 5-20 but I believe it will last even longer on a 30wt. What is so hard to understand that this engine is spec'd for a much heavier weight outside of the US. You are playing right into CAFE's game. Even in the US, the exact same engine used to be spec'd for 30wt. Again, how is a 30wt counterproductive in a Honda?

It never ceases to amaze me the suggestions on here from people that have never tried anything different.


Because in a Honda, I've found the car can diiferentiate between 'lighter' and 'heavier' 20 wts, yes heavier 20 wts like PP and M1 versus lighter 20 weights like some synthetic blends I've used and have lost FE due to the pumping losses.. pumping losses from the oil pump having to work harder (versus another lighter 20wt oil) from the oil being too thick for Honda's tighter tolerance design. Now keep in mind, we're comparing 20 wt versus 20wt so imagine what using a 30 weight would do?

Furthermore Honda's tolerances themselves are pretty tight and benefit from lighter oil that pumps and subsequently flows easier and faster...tolerances as in all the oil passages and stuff. Add to the fact that better and faster flow=cooler temps and less viscosity breakdown per Haas's research and you have a winner in using 20wt or 'lighter' weight oil in a Honda.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: 06VtecV6
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: cheetahdriver

as far as the 5w20, use it with confidence. running a thicker oil in a honda is counterproductive, a good 5w20 with service as the indicator shows will result in the engine outlasting the body...


Please, tell me how going to a 30wt in a Honda is counterproductive in a mild climate. If you actually had any experience, you would know there was no measurable decrease in fuel economy and surprisingly the car felt stronger when in VTEC.

The engine will last a long time on 5-20 but I believe it will last even longer on a 30wt. What is so hard to understand that this engine is spec'd for a much heavier weight outside of the US. You are playing right into CAFE's game. Even in the US, the exact same engine used to be spec'd for 30wt. Again, how is a 30wt counterproductive in a Honda?

It never ceases to amaze me the suggestions on here from people that have never tried anything different.


Because in a Honda, I've use heavier 20 wts, yes 20 wts and have lost FE due to pumping losses.. pumping losses from the oil pump having to work harder versus another lighter 20wt oil from the oil being too thick for Honda's tighter tolerance design. Furthermore Honda's tolerances themselves are pretty tight and benefit from lighter oil that pumps and subsequently flows easier and faster...tolerances as in all the oil passages and stuff. Add to the fact that better and faster flow=cooler temps and less viscosity breakdown per Haas's research and you have a winner in using 20wt or 'lighter' weight oil in a Honda.


Just a question, but have you actually torn down the engine to verify the "high Fe" is real wear or simply the range of particulate size that happens to be picked up by the UOA?

BuickGN brought up a very good point, that reinforced a point that Doug Hillary had brought up earlier. Single Pass UOA's are good for many things. Identifying engine wear outside of massive quantities of bearing material is not one of those things.

You are looking at a very narrow spectrum of wear particles. If the thinner oil is leaving larger particles, there is a good possibility of them not being picked up by the UOA.

This is why companies; both engine manufacturers and oil producers do TEAR DOWN testing.

The RDX calls for a 5w30 and I do not know of any 20-weight oils that meet Honda's own HTO-06 standard.

 

[Liquid_Turbo]

Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: Liquid_Turbo
BuickGN:

Have a read at Honda's study of 0w20 oil in place of 5w30 oil.

http://cid-ada1e19227939272.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Public/SAE 0w20.pdf

Yes, you are correct "more wear" is present, but it is ever so slight that it is virtually negligible. Out with the old, in with the new. Didn't people react similarly when 5w30 became the norm?




Original Poster: Just use 5w20 with full confidence! Plenty of UOA shows it is more than adequate. If your minivan suffers catastrophic engine failure using 5w20 and the diagnosis is that you should have used 5w30, I'll buy you a new engine


Thank you. This is all I wanted and this is all I've been saying.

Wear is acceptable with 0w-20, but there is still more wear than with the 5-30. 0w-20 is used for fuel economy.

For people like me that plan on going half a million miles, I choose the 10-30 which most likely widens the gap from the 0w-20.

It would've been nice if there was a rod/main bearing wear test thrown in there too.


Where did you find the info that the J35 specs 30 and 40 elsewhere in the world? I'm trying to determine if switching from 20 to 30 would be better idea for my K20A3. (Don't care about fuel economy anymore)

 

[cheetahdriver]

Originally Posted By: BuickGN

Honda does not have CAFE beat. I'm not sure where this is coming from.
....

I put no weight in UOAs for wear.


Honda's CAFE average for cars sold in the U.S. in 2006 was 33.9 mpg. For trucks, it was 24.7 mpg. That's a 2.1-mpg increase for cars and a 5.3-mpg increase for trucks to meet the new standard. considering the new insight hybrid(which is nothing like the old insight hybrid, one of which i own) goes on sale this year, i would expect the car number to go upward past the new standard with no additional work by honda. anyone think they are going to just sit there like the US automakers?

if you put no weight on UOAs for wear, why bother to be here? what do you use? smell? ouiji boards? if you don't believe any of the testing, papers or other well sourced info, what are we arguing about? religion?

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: Liquid_Turbo
BuickGN:

Have a read at Honda's study of 0w20 oil in place of 5w30 oil.

http://cid-ada1e19227939272.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Public/SAE 0w20.pdf

Yes, you are correct "more wear" is present, but it is ever so slight that it is virtually negligible. Out with the old, in with the new. Didn't people react similarly when 5w30 became the norm?

Original Poster: Just use 5w20 with full confidence! Plenty of UOA shows it is more than adequate. If your minivan suffers catastrophic engine failure using 5w20 and the diagnosis is that you should have used 5w30, I'll buy you a new engine


I totally agree. Statistically it's a tie. And that was an old spec...."lab brew".

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: cheetahdriver
Originally Posted By: BuickGN

Honda does not have CAFE beat. I'm not sure where this is coming from.
....

I put no weight in UOAs for wear.


Honda's CAFE average for cars sold in the U.S. in 2006 was 33.9 mpg. For trucks, it was 24.7 mpg. That's a 2.1-mpg increase for cars and a 5.3-mpg increase for trucks to meet the new standard. considering the new insight hybrid(which is nothing like the old insight hybrid, one of which i own) goes on sale this year, i would expect the car number to go upward past the new standard with no additional work by honda. anyone think they are going to just sit there like the US automakers?

if you put no weight on UOAs for wear, why bother to be here? what do you use? smell? ouiji boards? if you don't believe any of the testing, papers or other well sourced info, what are we arguing about? religion?


Don't go nuts. I just said I don't believe in UOAs to determine wear rate. They're good for many other things. Where have I disputed papers? I take a back seat to most people on here as they are more knowlegable than me but I do have an extensive racing background and I've done plenty teardowns. Am I supposed to believe a UOA that says everything is fine even though my rod bearings are hammered, piston pins nearly siezed, and the ring/bore area severely worn? How about when I change to thicker oil and the problems go away or are less severe?

It's like saying don't believe your own eyes, put all your faith in a UOA.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: scoobie
in my case the -20 and -30 does actually occur, so i am a bit more sensitive about it.
so rather than split hairs, i suggest a compromise, and run 5w25. synthetic for good measure.
(which happens to be exactly what i do - i am not sure, both sides make valid argument, the truth is in there somewhere, so i just split the difference instead of splitting the hair)


Out of curiosity, given that -20 and -30 is in the cards for you, why not select 0w-20 and 0w30 oils? Youre going syn anyway...

Just curious.

 

[scoobie]

I'm just quoting Dr. Haas, I don't understand how that can get on people's nerves - i always thought it was an admirable trait to study and learn. and if quoting the doctor gets on ur nerves, then
that is not my fault, i'm not responsible for other people's emotional reaction. i just come here to have a relaxing leisurely discussion about the best way to change the oil in a crank case. You seem to turn everything into a "battle" - there is no "battle" here, I'm not fighting a war, or trying to take over any territory, just expaining how i understand it, based on my knowledge, experience and reading, which of course will be different from yours. I have no dog in this hunt : the owner of this site kindly provides a server so people can sit around and chat about oil - nothing to do about holding a battle ground.
Everything I state is strictly my own opinion, and i don't expect you or anyone else to be swayed one way or another. no one is paid to make postings here, nothing i say here interferes with anyones freedom, or livelihood, and i stay away from offering disparaging comments. that's about it, no less, and no more.
I oil my engines the best way I see fit, and I own those engines, and I have a right to oil them any way I choose to. You, on the other hand, own your engines, and you oil them the way you like. i don't force you to oil your engine this way or that way, but on the other hand, i am also aware of my scores on the general MCAT testing puts my level of intelligence at probably higher than 999 out of a 1000 people. Perhaps not here, but in general. again, i have no dog in this hunt, and i'm not here to cause trouble or start a battle with anyone. however i believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion, and they are entitled to STATE their opinion, without fear of accusation or intimidation, and if someone is not able to make their point, without having to insert a disparaging reference to another member, who is here to try to learn, then i would say, as the French put it:
tant pis.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: scoobie
I'm just quoting Dr. Haas, I don't understand how that can get on people's nerves - i always thought it was an admirable trait to study and learn. and if quoting the doctor gets on ur nerves, then
that is not my fault, i'm not responsible for other people's emotional reaction.


It's not your quoting of Dr. Haas. Is you using his information out of context that causes it to be misconstrued.

Quote:
i just come here to have a relaxing leisurely discussion about the best way to change the oil in a crank case. You seem to turn everything into a "battle" - there is no "battle" here, I'm not fighting a war, or trying to take over any territory, just expaining how i understand it, based on my knowledge, experience and reading, which of course will be different from yours.


This isn't about changing oil bud. That's the problem. This is ADVICE and RECOMMENDATIONS which should be based on FACTUAL information. But it's not. THAT is the issue. If it was just about changing oil, well, I don't think we'd have anything to talk about.

Quote:
I have no dog in this hunt : the owner of this site kindly provides a server so people can sit around and chat about oil - nothing to do about holding a battle ground.
Everything I state is strictly my own opinion, and i don't expect you or anyone else to be swayed one way or another.


But people that come here and read may take what you say as factual. And a lot of it is not. That's why you get so much opposition to many of your posts. As you may have noticed, you have a lot more people disagreeing with what you state than agreeing with it.

Quote:
no one is paid to make postings here, nothing i say here interferes with anyones freedom, or livelihood, and i stay away from offering disparaging comments. that's about it, no less, and no more.


On that point, there are sponsors that PAY to be here and post here as well.

Quote:
I oil my engines the best way I see fit, and I own those engines, and I have a right to oil them any way I choose to. You, on the other hand, own your engines, and you oil them the way you like. i don't force you to oil your engine this way or that way, but on the other hand, i am also aware of my scores on the general MCAT testing puts my level of intelligence at probably higher than 999 out of a 1000 people.


I agree with your first part. The 2nd part, not to sound condescending or judgemental, but you do not write like somebody who should be in MENSA. I am well aware of my own IQ score and I would be surprised if we were batting in the same league.

Quote:
my level of understanding and intelligence are above yours.


Really? Do you know me? Do you know my IQ? Have you had your IQ tested, or are you basing this on your Medical College Admission Test score?

Quote:
Perhaps not here, but in general. again, i have no dog in this hunt, and i'm not here to cause trouble or start a battle with anyone.


Yet you feel you are more intelligent than basically everybody on this site?

Quote:
however i believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion, and they are entitled to STATE their opinion, without fear of accusation or intimidation, and if someone is not able to make their point, without having to insert a disparaging reference to another member, who is here to try to learn, then i would say, as the French put it:
tant pis.


I have another take on this:

People come here to learn. And when they are presented with information that is NOT factual, but presented as such, then they are being done a disservice.

Doug Hillary provides FACTUAL information based on REAL testing, not theory. Bruce, Molekule, again, provide FACTUAL information based on their knowledge in the field.

And while everybody has their right to their OPINION, it should be noted whether that opinion is based in fact or fallacy; experience or conjecture.

 

[scoobie]

No, you didn't read what I said: why do you put down, that

"my level of intelligence and understanding are above yours"

YOU are the only person who said that, I said that i happen to have a higher level of intelligence than 999/1000 on a standardized test - BUT PERHAPS NOT HERE

notice that i said the opposite to what i was accused of - i said i have far more intelligence than average, but PRESENT COMPANY IS EXCLUDED. So at least I can be granted to have intelligence at least the level of "average Joe" - in other words I'm not a MORAN.

I cannot believe that you just manufactured a quote out of thin air, and then proceeded to knock it down!!!

Of course people come here for facts, BUT MORE IMPORTANT, THEY SHOULD BE COMING HERE TO LEARN, and if they're not smart enough to reason for themselves, and to be able to figure out which assertion seems more likely to be correct, then they need to learn how to think for themselves: NEWSFLASH -- SOMEONE WROTE AN OPINION ON THE INTERNET THAT WAS NOT CORRECT!!!

Besides, look at it this way: in order for your brilliance to shine, it needs to have something that it can be compared to - perhaps something ordinary - imagine that i am that ordinary thing, and my purpose is to provide contrast in order to accentuate other people's brilliance. I notice that the owner of this forum did not put any test of knowledge to be required, and i did go through the forum and dutifully read the sticky posts of Bob, on the front page, I went through Dr. Haas's course on motor oils, i took Dr. Haas's test, and passed. So, on balance i see no reason for me not to be allowed to give my opinion, unless Helen decides.

One more point, Dr. Haas's quote was NOT out of context - he was referring to the exact set of conditions that were under discussion.