Thanks so much for all the input folks. Lots to digest, but certainly helpful. Much appreciated!
Tom NJ
Tom NJ
New gun oil under development
- Thread starter Tom NJ
- Start date
- Status
AZjeff
$50 Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted By: tom slick
AZJeff, You might want to read some of TomNJ's previous posts. He's more than qualified to assist on developing a gun oil; he's a retired lubrication/chemical engineer.
Thanks for the heads up. The first thing I said was no disrespect intended. Still think the intended useage could be better defined.
Regrettably I'm not in the habit of looking at everyone's previous posts. If someone has creds it would be great to list them in their sig.
AZJeff, You might want to read some of TomNJ's previous posts. He's more than qualified to assist on developing a gun oil; he's a retired lubrication/chemical engineer.
Thanks for the heads up. The first thing I said was no disrespect intended. Still think the intended useage could be better defined.
Regrettably I'm not in the habit of looking at everyone's previous posts. If someone has creds it would be great to list them in their sig.
The signature doesn't need to turn into a resume.
You don't need to be a gun owner to engineer a weapon lube.
Some of our contract machine-shop work to the firearms manufacturers went to non-gun owner machinists. And, my paper boy has never read the newspaper.
Its great that a lube engineer takes the time to work with someone in the field, and to ask 'us' here at bitog for our opinions.
I think what TomNJ needs to do is look at what is available and see if it can be improved on.
Eezox, Gunbutter, Rem Oil, Kroil, Ballistol, Hoppes, Slip2000, FP10, WeaponShield, MilComm, BreakFree, Gunslick, MPro7, Froglube, Tetra, SlideGlide.....are some to research.
It seems that every week there is some new grossly overpriced gun lube fad recommended by some shooter or manufacturer, with nothing but opinion to back it up.
I haven't found anything that worked any better than common cleaners, greases, oils, and spray lubricants on my garage shelf.
I'm also not a big fan of mil-spec's as they're overly worded and sometimes all-inclusive which doesn't make them optimum. The mil-specs are a good read but be willing to not be all inclusive with the C, L, and P part of any 'gun oil'.
For example: Eezox leans toward "P", Hoppes and like solvents are definitely "C", and the oils, like Weaponshield, are "L". The typical CLP makes too many sacrifices in order to be a CLP.
Give me a CP, or a CL, or a LP, and label them as such.
Use a cleaner for cleaning. After cleaning, if heading to a range, use a lube. After cleaning, if heading to storage, use a protectant. If heading to range after long term storage, break out the cleaner and then the lube. If too lazy to clean after range time, break out the protectant. Market it as such. You can see why so many just use a CLP. I would take a CP or CL or LP over a CLP!
What I really want is something that is affordable that works well for a given role. Tired of all these little tubes of oil and tiny containers of grease that are grossly overpriced and don't perform any better than motor oil or NGLI 1 or 2 grease.
Someone out there is coloring $5/qt motor oil, reselling it in 1-ounce $10 syringes, and is making a killing. You fell for the fancy name!
At least with TomNJ's background, we'll know that its not going to be rebottled motor oil, but perhaps a group 5ish oil with appropriate visc and additives for the intended purpose, hopefully available in light(Alaska/Canada), medium(Yankees), and heavy oil weights(Southerners), along with equivalent grease weights for the climate. Please make "L" primary, "P" secondary, and ignore "C" altogether.
You don't need to be a gun owner to engineer a weapon lube.
Some of our contract machine-shop work to the firearms manufacturers went to non-gun owner machinists. And, my paper boy has never read the newspaper.
Its great that a lube engineer takes the time to work with someone in the field, and to ask 'us' here at bitog for our opinions.
I think what TomNJ needs to do is look at what is available and see if it can be improved on.
Eezox, Gunbutter, Rem Oil, Kroil, Ballistol, Hoppes, Slip2000, FP10, WeaponShield, MilComm, BreakFree, Gunslick, MPro7, Froglube, Tetra, SlideGlide.....are some to research.
It seems that every week there is some new grossly overpriced gun lube fad recommended by some shooter or manufacturer, with nothing but opinion to back it up.
I haven't found anything that worked any better than common cleaners, greases, oils, and spray lubricants on my garage shelf.
I'm also not a big fan of mil-spec's as they're overly worded and sometimes all-inclusive which doesn't make them optimum. The mil-specs are a good read but be willing to not be all inclusive with the C, L, and P part of any 'gun oil'.
For example: Eezox leans toward "P", Hoppes and like solvents are definitely "C", and the oils, like Weaponshield, are "L". The typical CLP makes too many sacrifices in order to be a CLP.
Give me a CP, or a CL, or a LP, and label them as such.
Use a cleaner for cleaning. After cleaning, if heading to a range, use a lube. After cleaning, if heading to storage, use a protectant. If heading to range after long term storage, break out the cleaner and then the lube. If too lazy to clean after range time, break out the protectant. Market it as such. You can see why so many just use a CLP. I would take a CP or CL or LP over a CLP!
What I really want is something that is affordable that works well for a given role. Tired of all these little tubes of oil and tiny containers of grease that are grossly overpriced and don't perform any better than motor oil or NGLI 1 or 2 grease.
Someone out there is coloring $5/qt motor oil, reselling it in 1-ounce $10 syringes, and is making a killing. You fell for the fancy name!
At least with TomNJ's background, we'll know that its not going to be rebottled motor oil, but perhaps a group 5ish oil with appropriate visc and additives for the intended purpose, hopefully available in light(Alaska/Canada), medium(Yankees), and heavy oil weights(Southerners), along with equivalent grease weights for the climate. Please make "L" primary, "P" secondary, and ignore "C" altogether.
Quote:
Please make "L" primary, "P" secondary, and ignore "C" altogether.
Not in my book. After using FP-10 and now Weapon Shield, I have no desire to go back to single use products. Both of these products (especially WS) do a very good job cleaning, especially after the 2nd or 3rd cleaning, all with no volatile solvents or nasty smells. Guns just don't get as dirty to begin with as well.
About the only dedicated cleaner I use anymore is the foaming bore cleaners for copper build up, but even this is not needed very often with WS.
Please make "L" primary, "P" secondary, and ignore "C" altogether.
Not in my book. After using FP-10 and now Weapon Shield, I have no desire to go back to single use products. Both of these products (especially WS) do a very good job cleaning, especially after the 2nd or 3rd cleaning, all with no volatile solvents or nasty smells. Guns just don't get as dirty to begin with as well.
About the only dedicated cleaner I use anymore is the foaming bore cleaners for copper build up, but even this is not needed very often with WS.
AZjeff
$50 Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted By: unDummy
The signature doesn't need to turn into a resume.
Agree with that. What Tom Slick said would be perfect: retired lubrication/chemical engineer. Nothing wrong with knowing who the experts are vs those who slept in a Holiday Inn Express last night.
I think what TomNJ needs to do is look at what is available and see if it can be improved on.
Eezox, Gunbutter, Rem Oil, Kroil, Ballistol, Hoppes, Slip2000, FP10, WeaponShield, MilComm, BreakFree, Gunslick, MPro7, Froglube, Tetra, SlideGlide.....are some to research.
Pretty much what I said.
As you illustrated it's a crowded market.
I haven't found anything that worked any better than common cleaners, greases, oils, and spray lubricants on my garage shelf.
A fair number of shooters use M1 for lube. I've been using it on my pistols and it works fine and you get enough out of an "empty" bottle to last for years.
The signature doesn't need to turn into a resume.
Agree with that. What Tom Slick said would be perfect: retired lubrication/chemical engineer. Nothing wrong with knowing who the experts are vs those who slept in a Holiday Inn Express last night.
I think what TomNJ needs to do is look at what is available and see if it can be improved on.
Eezox, Gunbutter, Rem Oil, Kroil, Ballistol, Hoppes, Slip2000, FP10, WeaponShield, MilComm, BreakFree, Gunslick, MPro7, Froglube, Tetra, SlideGlide.....are some to research.
Pretty much what I said.
As you illustrated it's a crowded market.
I haven't found anything that worked any better than common cleaners, greases, oils, and spray lubricants on my garage shelf.
A fair number of shooters use M1 for lube. I've been using it on my pistols and it works fine and you get enough out of an "empty" bottle to last for years.
The friend who is formulating this new oil has over 25 years of experience in formulating and testing high performance lubricants, including mil-spec products, and he is well qualified for the task. I am serving only as an advisor so he can benefit from our combined knowledge and experience.
The first and most important part of the formulation process is setting the goals and objectives for the finished product, and that means understanding what the end users want and need, as well as how these needs are currently being satisfied (or not). This is why I reached out to you kind folks here, and your input is exactly what I was hoping for.
Thanks again!
Tom NJ
The first and most important part of the formulation process is setting the goals and objectives for the finished product, and that means understanding what the end users want and need, as well as how these needs are currently being satisfied (or not). This is why I reached out to you kind folks here, and your input is exactly what I was hoping for.
Thanks again!
Tom NJ
The oil shouldn't have anything that will attach the varnish finish on some guns with wood stocks. Basically expensive guns.
Originally Posted By: tom slick
It can't harm plastics (Nylon mostly) and it can't damage paint or oil finishes on wood or metal. Something that would stick to the slides in a semi-auto pistol (think machine slide ways) but not bleed out, grease is often used but most manuf. call for a drop of oil.
Personally, I've never had what I felt to be a great deal of success using an oil on auto pistol slides. If I put enough oil to be effective it seems to migrate into places I don't want it. I tend to view slide lubrication as strictly the domain for light greases (and very small quantities at that). I save oil for the trigger and hammer assemblies and maybe a very small amount of oil on the magazine ejection moving parts. Now it could be that I've just never used the right oil for a slide, but it would seem to be in the nature of an oil to migrate in this application.
It can't harm plastics (Nylon mostly) and it can't damage paint or oil finishes on wood or metal. Something that would stick to the slides in a semi-auto pistol (think machine slide ways) but not bleed out, grease is often used but most manuf. call for a drop of oil.
Personally, I've never had what I felt to be a great deal of success using an oil on auto pistol slides. If I put enough oil to be effective it seems to migrate into places I don't want it. I tend to view slide lubrication as strictly the domain for light greases (and very small quantities at that). I save oil for the trigger and hammer assemblies and maybe a very small amount of oil on the magazine ejection moving parts. Now it could be that I've just never used the right oil for a slide, but it would seem to be in the nature of an oil to migrate in this application.
Originally Posted By: unDummy
If you missed the textbook chapter on "oil and gravity". Try using a grease.
Yeah, that's why in my post I said (quote) "I tend to view slide lubrication as strictly the domain for light greases (and very small quantities at that)".
If you missed the textbook chapter on "oil and gravity". Try using a grease.
Yeah, that's why in my post I said (quote) "I tend to view slide lubrication as strictly the domain for light greases (and very small quantities at that)".
If I was designing a gun lube from the ground up, I would buy the top ten or so gun lubes on the market and have a chemical anylisis done on them to see what they actually have in them. Then go from there...
Oil I use has no problem leaking out of a slide, even after many rounds. Stays in place in the safe as well.
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Oil I use has no problem leaking out of a slide, even after many rounds. Stays in place in the safe as well.
OK - what do you use?
Oil I use has no problem leaking out of a slide, even after many rounds. Stays in place in the safe as well.
OK - what do you use?
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Oil I use has no problem leaking out of a slide, even after many rounds. Stays in place in the safe as well.
OK - what do you use?
Sorry, trying not to be a typing billboard.
I use Weapon Shield CLP and am very happy with it. It really is all that.
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Oil I use has no problem leaking out of a slide, even after many rounds. Stays in place in the safe as well.
OK - what do you use?
Sorry, trying not to be a typing billboard.
I use Weapon Shield CLP and am very happy with it. It really is all that.
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
If I was designing a gun lube from the ground up, I would buy the top ten or so gun lubes on the market and have a chemical anylisis done on them to see what they actually have in them. Then go from there...
Personally I would not do that if I was making a lube. I might do it to make sure I was not infringing on someone else's product. If the OP is a good lube engineer, he would be better off developing something from the ground up, than designing a me-to product.
To TomNJ (some more info). I think that lubes for black-powder guns are different than lubes for smokeless powder guns. I can't remember, but I think something in the oil causes more fouling, acid, or something else. Most black-powder shooters use Crisco or some other vegetable grease or vegetable type oil that doesn't harden or turn sticky.
Marketing will be the biggest problem. With so many oils on the market, the person selling the product needs to convince the buyer that it will work better (for the money) than what they are currently using. Retailers will keep it on their shelf and maybe push it if there is a higher profit margin than other products.
If I was designing a gun lube from the ground up, I would buy the top ten or so gun lubes on the market and have a chemical anylisis done on them to see what they actually have in them. Then go from there...
Personally I would not do that if I was making a lube. I might do it to make sure I was not infringing on someone else's product. If the OP is a good lube engineer, he would be better off developing something from the ground up, than designing a me-to product.
To TomNJ (some more info). I think that lubes for black-powder guns are different than lubes for smokeless powder guns. I can't remember, but I think something in the oil causes more fouling, acid, or something else. Most black-powder shooters use Crisco or some other vegetable grease or vegetable type oil that doesn't harden or turn sticky.
Marketing will be the biggest problem. With so many oils on the market, the person selling the product needs to convince the buyer that it will work better (for the money) than what they are currently using. Retailers will keep it on their shelf and maybe push it if there is a higher profit margin than other products.
The following characteristics for gun oils and greases are important to me. Didn’t read through all the previous posts here, so some or all may be repeats.
Oil – used for tight clearance pivots and bearing surfaces, especially those buried well inside the gun, like trigger and hammer pivots.
Grease – used for looser clearance pivots and bearing surfaces like slides, barrel lugs, and revolver cylinder bearing surfaces.
The following are important to me for both the oil and grease I use.
Performance over temperature – Must not gum up at any operating temperature from -20 to 110.
Cleanliness – Needs to be nearly colorless (so it isn’t visible on stainless steel) and remain clean as long as it remains on the gun. Also can’t turn to varnish.
Protection – reduced friction, especially with some stainless steels that tend to gall. Leaving a protective layer or film even after it appears to be “gone” would also be a plus.
Low odor – for my own benefit and to keep the safe from becoming too aromatic.
Doesn’t attract dirt (not sure this is possible with an oil or grease).
Compatibility with composite materials and paints used on guns is also very important.
Oil – used for tight clearance pivots and bearing surfaces, especially those buried well inside the gun, like trigger and hammer pivots.
Grease – used for looser clearance pivots and bearing surfaces like slides, barrel lugs, and revolver cylinder bearing surfaces.
The following are important to me for both the oil and grease I use.
Performance over temperature – Must not gum up at any operating temperature from -20 to 110.
Cleanliness – Needs to be nearly colorless (so it isn’t visible on stainless steel) and remain clean as long as it remains on the gun. Also can’t turn to varnish.
Protection – reduced friction, especially with some stainless steels that tend to gall. Leaving a protective layer or film even after it appears to be “gone” would also be a plus.
Low odor – for my own benefit and to keep the safe from becoming too aromatic.
Doesn’t attract dirt (not sure this is possible with an oil or grease).
Compatibility with composite materials and paints used on guns is also very important.
I think I'd add high lubricity to the list above, but that sort of goes without saying. We'd like our guns to wear as little as possible of course.
Originally Posted By: Steve S
I usually use syn motor oil but one of my friends gave me a bottle of EWL made in Rohnert Park,just below Santa Rosa Ca.,I don't know what is in it but it seems by far the best of any gun oil I have ever used.
Sir could you please elaborate on why It's the best gun oil
that you have ever used? What firearms are you using it on
and what makes it the best in your experience?
I usually use syn motor oil but one of my friends gave me a bottle of EWL made in Rohnert Park,just below Santa Rosa Ca.,I don't know what is in it but it seems by far the best of any gun oil I have ever used.
Sir could you please elaborate on why It's the best gun oil
that you have ever used? What firearms are you using it on
and what makes it the best in your experience?
- Status