New Ford Hybrid Owners complaining-MPG overboasted

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: rjundi

I think Toyota owns the hybrid market currently due to serious R&D back in late 1990's. Everyone else is an experiment.


Really? Ford has been doing hybrids since 2005 with the Escape. The system was independently derived and similar to Toyota's. (There was no joint development like was claimed by many.)

Toyota had great marketing - Ford really never marketed the Escape and Fusion hybrids and you never saw incentives on them.

Then again, I think hybrids suck. Just spent another day in the company's '09 Prius and it's not a good car. Loud, noisy, and somewhat unresponsive. The only cool thing was doing a 400+ mile trip on 11 gallons of gas. That would be 18-21 gallons in my "real" car which is bigger, more comfortable to drive, and has gobs and gobs of power.


Toyota has been working on hybrids since 1995. Ford's 2005 doesn't sound that great. BTW, Ford pays a license for Toyota patents on the hybrid dravetrain.

For the record, most hybrid principles were developed in USA back in 70s and 80s. Too bad domestic industry was not interested.

As for your hate for Prius, well that car is not for everyone. Doesn't mean it's a bad car. You wont find me driving a pickup truck or full size SUV. Yet, I'm not running around here on BITOG insulting others and screaming those trucks suck.

 

[friendly_jacek]

When Ford's C-max hybrid was released, it advertised bigger, heavier, faster, more powerful car, with better fuel efficiency than Prius V. How is it possible? Ask the people on the C-max forums if they are getting the EPA numbers (rhetoric question).

Either Ford cheated the EPA or otherwise "gamed" the test. Supposedly, some cars' ECU can recognize EPA test cycle in progress and put it in a stealth super eco mode.

There is some more info here: http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/2013-f...the-real-world/

 

[rjundi]

quote:

Quote:
That was Car and Driver’s experience as well. Testing the C-Max Hybrid, the magazine averaged 32 mpg, concluding in its December 2012 issue that, “driving it like a real car yields real car fuel economy.”


The question arises really is if you buy the regular engine does it yield close to the real world MPG of the hybrid.

 

[Spector]

I have the 2012 Lincoln Hybrid, same power train as the 2012 Fusion and it does live up to the EPA estimates, 41 city 36 highway, actually, I get closer to 39-40 highway and city, well, when engine cold that could drop to mid 20s on a short trip. overall, in the EPA range. No complaints. 191 combined HP is enough for 95% of my driving needs. I thought that Ford licensed the Toyota technology?

 

[rjundi]

Originally Posted By: Spector
I have the 2012 Lincoln Hybrid, same power train as the 2012 Fusion and it does live up to the EPA estimates, 41 city 36 highway, actually, I get closer to 39-40 highway and city, well, when engine cold that could drop to mid 20s on a short trip. overall, in the EPA range. No complaints. 191 combined HP is enough for 95% of my driving needs. I thought that Ford licensed the Toyota technology?


The complaints are not your realistic MPG. The complaints stem from the new 47mpg city/47mpg highway which are a stretch in new generation 2013 Fusion/CMAX. The powertrain differs from the complaints.

 

[Spector]

Quote from previous post
"Hybrids are hype.

I mean the Fusion is a perfect example, outrageously expensive, many redundancies, uses more energy to manufacture...I would bet that it takes a LONG time to recover the initial purchase amount.

Just by a diesel car. A much better decision."

Commnent!
Well, Prius has no additional cost for the hybrid nor does Lincoln. Yes, the Camry does and so does the Fusion which pushes the break even point (at today's gas prices to 5+ years) and probably not cost effective. Now if gas goes to $5/gal.

However, diesel fuel is by far no bargain and diesels do require more maintenance and VW charges $3-4000 more (like the hybrid cost) if you want a diesel so no real savings comparing diesel to hybrid IMO

 

[zzyzzx]

Early 80's Diesel Escorts beats all of them in MPG ratings.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: zzyzzx
Early 80's Diesel Escorts beats all of them in MPG ratings.


OK, I will bait. How many HP?

My folks used to own 1980's Uno diesel in Europe. It had a great fuel efficiency. Up to 4 liters/100 km (59 MPG). Same as my current Prius. The only thing is it was very unsafe to drive 1700 lbs car with manual gearbox and measly 45 HP (0-60 in 20-25s IIRC) compared to near 3000 lbs automatic Prius with 135 HP (0-60 in 10s).

 

[morepwr]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Judging by how people drive, I'll bet it is 90% user error.


No doubt! I see prius flying in the fast lane all the time!

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek


Toyota has been working on hybrids since 1995. Ford's 2005 doesn't sound that great. BTW, Ford pays a license for Toyota patents on the hybrid dravetrain.


I'm not sure about the timelines but I can assure you Ford does not pay Toyota a license at all. In fact they both were developed independent of each other. Basically they agreed to share patents.

Here you go for citations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive#Ford
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/07/03/onc...ta-hybrid-syst/


Quote:
For the record, most hybrid principles were developed in USA back in 70s and 80s. Too bad domestic industry was not interested.


It was back in the 60's according to the Autoblog article.


Quote:
As for your hate for Prius, well that car is not for everyone. Doesn't mean it's a bad car. You wont find me driving a pickup truck or full size SUV. Yet, I'm not running around here on BITOG insulting others and screaming those trucks suck.


Sorry, it is a bad car. Seats are uncomfortable, the drive is not that good. It's noisy and hard to see out of the back with the split window. It makes weird noises and sounds like it's ready to explode when you get on the highway. It's a bad car. The only thing that is "cool" is the gas savings but after a day in it, I wanted to poke my eyes out and couldn't wait to get out of the POS. Perhaps the Highlander or the Camry hybrids are better but the Prius sucks.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: itguy08

I'm not sure about the timelines but I can assure you Ford does not pay Toyota a license at all. In fact they both were developed independent of each other. Basically they agreed to share patents.

Here you go for citations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive#Ford


I don't know who pay what whom but the source you quoted clearly states:
Quote:
Ford Motor Company independently developed a system with key technologies similar to Toyota's HSD technology in 2004. As a result, Ford licensed 21 patents from Toyota in exchange for patents relating to emissions technology.[22]


Originally Posted By: itguy08

Sorry, it is a bad car. [...] the Prius sucks.


Why don't don't you tell me what you drive, and I will tell you it sucks big time (probably gas).

 

[NateDN10]

Originally Posted By: itguy08
Sorry, it is a bad car. Seats are uncomfortable, the drive is not that good. It's noisy and hard to see out of the back with the split window. It makes weird noises and sounds like it's ready to explode when you get on the highway. It's a bad car. The only thing that is "cool" is the gas savings but after a day in it, I wanted to poke my eyes out and couldn't wait to get out of the POS. Perhaps the Highlander or the Camry hybrids are better but the Prius sucks.

This is your opinion but you're presenting it as fact. I wouldn't buy a Prius, but there are many, many happy owners who would beg to differ with you.

 

[neevers]

I'm getting good MPG out of mine, I don't know why everyone else is having an issue..... Probably user error. I'm just driving with a light foot, nothing special.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: zzyzzx
Early 80's Diesel Escorts beats all of them in MPG ratings.


OK, I will bait. How many HP?

My folks used to own 1980's Uno diesel in Europe. It had a great fuel efficiency. Up to 4 liters/100 km (59 MPG). Same as my current Prius. The only thing is it was very unsafe to drive 1700 lbs car with manual gearbox and measly 45 HP (0-60 in 20-25s IIRC) compared to near 3000 lbs automatic Prius with 135 HP (0-60 in 10s).


Having actually OWNED a diesel Escort, it drove pretty well. IIRC, it had 60HP. (Of course, the gas 1.6 only had about 75!) Averaged right at 50MPG.

 

[refaller]

The biggest issue with MPG in the states is we will not buy cars with a 0-60 time of Tuesday anymore. When I first started looking at cars (in the early 1990s), it seemed like anything under 10 seconds was acceptable, in the 8s was quick. Now all cars are in the 8s and Accords with v6s are in the 6s. Ridiculous. But, since market dictates what we get, we can fly and get less gas mileage. I would take a 12 second 0-60 time and 50MPG any day.

ref

 

[Mr_Incredible]

Originally Posted By: itguy08
The only cool thing was doing a 400+ mile trip on 11 gallons of gas.


THAT is what the Prius is all about. All that power and comfort thing is for other cars. You can't have power and still get extreme mileage for the masses. You can't have comfort and still keep the weight down...to get extreme mileage for the masses.

It isn't really all that hard to comprehend. A choice must be made. Comfort/power, or MPGs.

But the biggest choice is between MPGs or Time. To get the best MPGs, you have to be patient and take your time getting where you're going. Not very many people can do that nowdays.

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek


I don't know who pay what whom but the source you quoted clearly states:
Quote:
Ford Motor Company independently developed a system with key technologies similar to Toyota's HSD technology in 2004. As a result, Ford licensed 21 patents from Toyota in exchange for patents relating to emissions technology.[22]


That's what I was saying - no money changed hands - they agreed to share patents. I guess a high tech barter.

Quote:
Why don't don't you tell me what you drive, and I will tell you it sucks big time (probably gas).


Sure - have at it - I've got thick skin - 2010 Taurus SHO. Yes it sucks much more gas than the Prius. I can get 26 MPG on the highway and 20-22 in mixed driving. It's also tons more comfortable, has more technolgy and is a heck of a lot better driving.

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted By: NateDN10

This is your opinion but you're presenting it as fact. I wouldn't buy a Prius, but there are many, many happy owners who would beg to differ with you.


Been a while since I read a review of the "regular" Prius but I think many of the complaints I listed were there. I do remember reading about the Prius C in the COTY issue of Motor Trend that car is not as good as a decent subcompact either.

 

[Cujet]

The Camry hybrid is a really nice driving car. Much more refined than Ford's products. However, it does not claim to get 47MPG either.

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted By: Mr_Incredible
Originally Posted By: itguy08
The only cool thing was doing a 400+ mile trip on 11 gallons of gas.


THAT is what the Prius is all about. All that power and comfort thing is for other cars. You can't have power and still get extreme mileage for the masses. You can't have comfort and still keep the weight down...to get extreme mileage for the masses.

It isn't really all that hard to comprehend. A choice must be made. Comfort/power, or MPGs.

But the biggest choice is between MPGs or Time. To get the best MPGs, you have to be patient and take your time getting where you're going. Not very many people can do that nowdays.


I think the issue with the Prius is it's too compromised. I think the Camry, Highlander, Fusion, or Escape hybrids would be better as they are based on decent cars. And I think they also get very good fuel economy.

The Prius feels too chintzy and feels like you are driving a de-contented car that's sole purpose is to get as much MPG as possible, driver and passenger comfort be [censored].

I know Toyota sells a bunch of them. Maybe if I lived in a big city or did lots of city driving it would be a great car. But for highway driving over long distances (I spent close to 7 hours in it) it is not a good car.