is really too thin and that you should be running M10W40 in every car.
Need some amunition for argument that 0W20 is
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Originally Posted By: A_Harman
The quick, superficial answer is:
If the car in question is spec'd for a 20-weight, 0w20 is fine. If it is spec'd for a 40-weight, 0w20 is not.
Can you tell more about the context of the argument?
+1 the difference between 0W-20 and 5W-20 is negligible so as A_Harman said if the car is spec'ed for 20 weight...
The quick, superficial answer is:
If the car in question is spec'd for a 20-weight, 0w20 is fine. If it is spec'd for a 40-weight, 0w20 is not.
Can you tell more about the context of the argument?
+1 the difference between 0W-20 and 5W-20 is negligible so as A_Harman said if the car is spec'ed for 20 weight...
He is arguing that I should really be running M1 0W40 in the wife's 07 Camry (which calls for 5W20 or 0W20) because if she is stuck in traffic on a hot Charlotte day that the 0W20 won't stand up to the heat.
If you drive extremely hard, have a manual trans, and possibly have some mods to bump upper torque peak 20% or more, then you might want a more viscous oil as a safety margin. If you dont know when and why a > HTHSv is needed - go back to LUBE CLASS 101.
Originally Posted By: teddyboy
He is arguing that I should really be running M1 0W40 in the wife's 07 Camry (which calls for 5W20 or 0W20) because if she is stuck in traffic on a hot Charlotte day that the 0W20 won't stand up to the heat.
If that a special aircooled Camry?
He is arguing that I should really be running M1 0W40 in the wife's 07 Camry (which calls for 5W20 or 0W20) because if she is stuck in traffic on a hot Charlotte day that the 0W20 won't stand up to the heat.
If that a special aircooled Camry?
He has a very good argument that he could challenge you with.
Look at other countries oil web sites and even in countries with lower temps than experienced in SC recommend Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 with a lighter AFE 0w30 as second choice.
IMO 0w40 or 5w40 would be fine for this engine. Why the discrepancy? CAFE, good for a few tenths of a MPG and could care less about the engine (just my opinion).
Does the 0w20 or 5w20 provide the same protection at higher temps? I don't know. This is just the opposing side of the argument.
Look at other countries oil web sites and even in countries with lower temps than experienced in SC recommend Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 with a lighter AFE 0w30 as second choice.
IMO 0w40 or 5w40 would be fine for this engine. Why the discrepancy? CAFE, good for a few tenths of a MPG and could care less about the engine (just my opinion).
Does the 0w20 or 5w20 provide the same protection at higher temps? I don't know. This is just the opposing side of the argument.
Originally Posted By: teddyboy
He is arguing that I should really be running M1 0W40 in the wife's 07 Camry (which calls for 5W20 or 0W20) because if she is stuck in traffic on a hot Charlotte day that the 0W20 won't stand up to the heat.
Oil temperatures while stuck in traffic on a hot Charlotte day are likely lower than they would be in higher-speed suburban driving. Oil temperatures usually correlate very well with engine RPM...the faster you spin the engine, the higher the oil temperatures will get...in general.
Now...ATF is a different story.
He is arguing that I should really be running M1 0W40 in the wife's 07 Camry (which calls for 5W20 or 0W20) because if she is stuck in traffic on a hot Charlotte day that the 0W20 won't stand up to the heat.
Oil temperatures while stuck in traffic on a hot Charlotte day are likely lower than they would be in higher-speed suburban driving. Oil temperatures usually correlate very well with engine RPM...the faster you spin the engine, the higher the oil temperatures will get...in general.
Now...ATF is a different story.
Everyone wants a one size fits all solution, the thin and the thick oil people. And that isn't going to happen. Different vehicles in different applications will be different.
Here we go again.
While I know they're not the same engine, many Crown Vics used as taxis get "stuck in traffic on a hot Charlotte day" and last seemingly forever on 5W-20.
People who think 5W-20 "won't stand up to the heat" are woefully out of touch with reality.
EDIT: what Hokiefyd said above and what CATERHAM says below
While I know they're not the same engine, many Crown Vics used as taxis get "stuck in traffic on a hot Charlotte day" and last seemingly forever on 5W-20.
People who think 5W-20 "won't stand up to the heat" are woefully out of touch with reality.
EDIT: what Hokiefyd said above and what CATERHAM says below
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Originally Posted By: teddyboy
He is arguing that I should really be running M1 0W40 in the wife's 07 Camry (which calls for 5W20 or 0W20) because if she is stuck in traffic on a hot Charlotte day that the 0W20 won't stand up to the heat.
He's is wrong for a number of reasons.
First sitting in traffic on a hot day can get the coolant temperature hotter than normal and the oil temperatures may follow but they will not get hotter than the coolant temp's.
So even if the coolant temp's saw 220F or even 230F, as unlikely as that may be, that not too hot for the oil.
Secondly, when stuck in traffic there is very little load on the engine and therefore the viscosity demands are at there lowest as most of the time you're barely dipping into the throttle.
When the traffic jam breaks and you're able to pick up some speed the coolant temp's will drop immediately along with the modestly higher than normal oil temp's.
So as you can see you don't have to be concerned about oil being too light in stop and go traffic.
It is lots of WOT that drives up oil temp's and since that's when the viscosity requirements of an engine are at their highest, that when you should be concerned about the adequacy of the oil viscosity you've choosen, not stop and go traffic on a hot day.
He is arguing that I should really be running M1 0W40 in the wife's 07 Camry (which calls for 5W20 or 0W20) because if she is stuck in traffic on a hot Charlotte day that the 0W20 won't stand up to the heat.
He's is wrong for a number of reasons.
First sitting in traffic on a hot day can get the coolant temperature hotter than normal and the oil temperatures may follow but they will not get hotter than the coolant temp's.
So even if the coolant temp's saw 220F or even 230F, as unlikely as that may be, that not too hot for the oil.
Secondly, when stuck in traffic there is very little load on the engine and therefore the viscosity demands are at there lowest as most of the time you're barely dipping into the throttle.
When the traffic jam breaks and you're able to pick up some speed the coolant temp's will drop immediately along with the modestly higher than normal oil temp's.
So as you can see you don't have to be concerned about oil being too light in stop and go traffic.
It is lots of WOT that drives up oil temp's and since that's when the viscosity requirements of an engine are at their highest, that when you should be concerned about the adequacy of the oil viscosity you've choosen, not stop and go traffic on a hot day.
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Horse hockey! I am positive that it is hotter in Houston that it ever is in Charlotte, I run 5W-20 year round with no issues and anyone that has been here has seen the gridlock that happens twice daily. In addition, I have towed a heavy load in 116+ degree heat, the oil remains in grade, has not oxidized, and the wear metals have only slightly increased from a non-towing to a towing OC in the UOAs.
Unless he has some quantifiable data to back up this claim, I would say he is behind the times regarding the use and capability of 5W-20.
Unless he has some quantifiable data to back up this claim, I would say he is behind the times regarding the use and capability of 5W-20.
What does a manual trans have to do with engine oil temps?
Tell him you will gladly conceed he is right when he can prove that you are wrong. He could always purchase oil temp & pressure gauges for you.
Tell him you will gladly conceed he is right when he can prove that you are wrong. He could always purchase oil temp & pressure gauges for you.
Originally Posted By: Trav
He has a very good argument that he could challenge you with.
Look at other countries oil web sites and even in countries with lower temps than experienced in SC recommend Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 with a lighter AFE 0w30 as second choice.
IMO 0w40 or 5w40 would be fine for this engine. Why the discrepancy? CAFE, good for a few tenths of a MPG and could care less about the engine (just my opinion).
Does the 0w20 or 5w20 provide the same protection at higher temps? I don't know. This is just the opposing side of the argument.
That's not a good argument, at all. It's an incredibly tired argument that has absolutely no basis in reality. The oil spec'd in other countries has absolutely nothing to do with how an oil performs in an engine. None.
There are plenty of reasons why different countries spec different oils, from regulations regarding hths to availability to consumer perception to differences in driving habits. None of that has anything to do with performance (except the last one).
Regarding the original question, I've never seem elevated oil temperatures while sitting in traffic in hot weather. The oil just doesn't seen to get that hot while sitting and idling, no matter the ambient temperatures. The only time I've seen elevated oil temperatures is while driving hard up an extended mountain pass. So, the argument that a thicker oil is needed for sitting in traffic falls pretty flat to me.
He has a very good argument that he could challenge you with.
Look at other countries oil web sites and even in countries with lower temps than experienced in SC recommend Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 with a lighter AFE 0w30 as second choice.
IMO 0w40 or 5w40 would be fine for this engine. Why the discrepancy? CAFE, good for a few tenths of a MPG and could care less about the engine (just my opinion).
Does the 0w20 or 5w20 provide the same protection at higher temps? I don't know. This is just the opposing side of the argument.
That's not a good argument, at all. It's an incredibly tired argument that has absolutely no basis in reality. The oil spec'd in other countries has absolutely nothing to do with how an oil performs in an engine. None.
There are plenty of reasons why different countries spec different oils, from regulations regarding hths to availability to consumer perception to differences in driving habits. None of that has anything to do with performance (except the last one).
Regarding the original question, I've never seem elevated oil temperatures while sitting in traffic in hot weather. The oil just doesn't seen to get that hot while sitting and idling, no matter the ambient temperatures. The only time I've seen elevated oil temperatures is while driving hard up an extended mountain pass. So, the argument that a thicker oil is needed for sitting in traffic falls pretty flat to me.
Originally Posted By: JOD
Regarding the original question, I've never seem elevated oil temperatures while sitting in traffic in hot weather. The oil just doesn't seen to get that hot while sitting and idling, no matter the ambient temperatures.
I think it's an unfortunate relic of the "Stop. Go. Pennzoil" marketing from years ago. Oil companies like to paint a very bleak picture of your oil cooking while sitting in stop and go traffic. This reasonates very well with people, because people CAN cook while sitting in stop and go traffic. The A/C doesn't work as well, we see the heat rising from cars around us, etc. We tend to imagine that the engine is experiencing the same feeling we are, but it's often not the case. Stop and go traffic, as stated earlier by myself and others like CATERHAM and JOD, is not "hard" on oil, contrary to what we might believe.
Use 0W- or 5W-20 oil in it without hesitation. I'm just around the corner from you in Fayetteville, which gets at least as hot as Charlotte (usually 2-3 degrees warmer) and my engines see 0W-20 oil year-round.
Regarding the original question, I've never seem elevated oil temperatures while sitting in traffic in hot weather. The oil just doesn't seen to get that hot while sitting and idling, no matter the ambient temperatures.
I think it's an unfortunate relic of the "Stop. Go. Pennzoil" marketing from years ago. Oil companies like to paint a very bleak picture of your oil cooking while sitting in stop and go traffic. This reasonates very well with people, because people CAN cook while sitting in stop and go traffic. The A/C doesn't work as well, we see the heat rising from cars around us, etc. We tend to imagine that the engine is experiencing the same feeling we are, but it's often not the case. Stop and go traffic, as stated earlier by myself and others like CATERHAM and JOD, is not "hard" on oil, contrary to what we might believe.
Use 0W- or 5W-20 oil in it without hesitation. I'm just around the corner from you in Fayetteville, which gets at least as hot as Charlotte (usually 2-3 degrees warmer) and my engines see 0W-20 oil year-round.
Originally Posted By: cp3
What does a manual trans have to do with engine oil temps?
..
Shock loading of plain bearings puts a higher demand on "adequate" viscosity than a fluid coupled AT would. Visc is more important than "high" oil pressure. Clap your hands as hard as you can in air (HTHSv 2.7) and next, underwater (HTHSv 3.5) tell me in which hurts the most after 20 hard claps.
What does a manual trans have to do with engine oil temps?
..
Shock loading of plain bearings puts a higher demand on "adequate" viscosity than a fluid coupled AT would. Visc is more important than "high" oil pressure. Clap your hands as hard as you can in air (HTHSv 2.7) and next, underwater (HTHSv 3.5) tell me in which hurts the most after 20 hard claps.
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Now he's posed a different question. Suppose you were going to drive a 4 cylinder Camry 120 MPH on the autobahn. Would 0W20 stand up to that service demand?
Originally Posted By: teddyboy
Now he's posed a different question. Suppose you were going to drive a 4 cylinder Camry 120 MPH on the autobahn. Would 0W20 stand up to that service demand?
Probably not. Does he plan on moving to Germany any time soon?
Now he's posed a different question. Suppose you were going to drive a 4 cylinder Camry 120 MPH on the autobahn. Would 0W20 stand up to that service demand?
Probably not. Does he plan on moving to Germany any time soon?
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That's not a good argument, at all. It's an incredibly tired argument that has absolutely no basis in reality.
It sure as heck is and is based 100% in reality but your entitled to your opinion.
If you like it you run it, just because you jumped on the band wagon doesn't make it your opinion any more correct than someone using different weight oil.
Quote:
The oil spec'd in other countries has absolutely nothing to do with how an oil performs in an engine. None.
Really? Then why does Ford spec heavier oil for the supercharged 5.4 in hotter climates?
What will happen to that engine in those countries if 5w20 was used?
That's not a good argument, at all. It's an incredibly tired argument that has absolutely no basis in reality.
It sure as heck is and is based 100% in reality but your entitled to your opinion.
If you like it you run it, just because you jumped on the band wagon doesn't make it your opinion any more correct than someone using different weight oil.
Quote:
The oil spec'd in other countries has absolutely nothing to do with how an oil performs in an engine. None.
Really? Then why does Ford spec heavier oil for the supercharged 5.4 in hotter climates?
What will happen to that engine in those countries if 5w20 was used?
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