Need help with filter analysis

[Ram_in_Texas]

Greetings,

I’m having a problem with my Volkswagen and my dealer says that he is being told by VWOA that it is a fuel quality issue that is causing the fuel filter to go bad. Let me give you all some background on this issue. The car is a 2005.5 Jetta 5 speed diesel with a little over 12k on the odometer. The car has a rough idle when pulling up to a stop, but it smoothes out when stopped. The only time that is will continue to idle rough is when the front of the car is pointed down. It also throws a check engine light once in a while which is why I brought it to the dealer. At about 7k miles, the dealer replaced the fuel filter for the same thing. Now he is being told by VWOA that it is a fuel related issue and will not cover it under warranty. I don’t feel that it has anything to do with the fuel because I fill up my Jeep CRD at the same place and it has no issues. I’ve already pulled a sample of the fuel in the tank and will be sending that off to get analyzed. What I need is a place to send the filter to get it analyzed to see if it is indeed “restricted” due to poor fuel quality. Does anyone know where to send a fuel filter off for analysis?

 

[Dark Jedi]

well have you even tried another station to get fuel from. just becasue one of your diesels works fine. doesnt mean another will also. so if you try this and it doesnt fix it. you then can take it back and say I tried another station and it still acts the same. did you also ask then where they fill their diesels up when they have cars on the lot that needs gas. I would go these methods and would kinda be cheaper than getting fuel checked. after all it can check out good but still wont run in your car.

 

[Ram_in_Texas]

My Jeep CRD gets half the fuel economy of my Jetta so it goes through twice as much fuel and would have seen a problem IF it was fuel related. They are saying the filter is "Bad" because of the fuel. Well, if the filter was bad, the engine would miss under load or at higher RPMs. That's why I want to get the filter analyzed. It will be harder for them to argue with hard scientific data if and when I have to lemon it. VW is the worst company to get warranty work from but they are about the only game in town for Diesel cars short of a 'benz.

 

[Gary Allan]

Sounds like a water issue. That is, the tilting forward/downhill triggers a water sensor in the fuel filter housing (does it have one?) and water is spilling over into the fuel stream. My Pukeout had such a small water trap that it would miss going down the highway @ 75 mph. I guess the velocity through the bowl was too much and it didn't drop out

..or maybe the turbulance was so high that the water sloshed around and was pushed into the outlet.

WIX list a fuel filter for this application:

It appears to have a water drain tap on it. Have you drained your filter when the light occured ..or just preemptively???

 

[Filter guy]

Be careful not to crack the plastic drain due to over tightening.

Only drain when the engine is shut off and you've let the car sit for awhile as water is heavier than diesel fuel and will settle out.

You may want to opt for a remote mount fuel water seperator. Try Diesel Injecton repair shops they should sell one. Racor makes them.

Champ offers the LFP2200K in the Luberfiner brand. This is the head and filter. Replacement element is LFP2200C. Overall length is 5.8 inches for the element. they have longer filters if you have the room (7.9" and 10.3"). The filter has a sight bowl to see the water to drain. If you want one of these PM me and i'll tell you where a local distributor is. These are 10 micron nominal filters. Besides the water removal aspects. They have a brass petcock, not plastic drain.

 

[Ram_in_Texas]

This unit is a canister setup with a cartridge filter element and there is no water drain on it. I have drained the Jeep's fuel water seperator and there was not water in it. I fuel the Jetta from the same place. Also the fuel sample from the Jetta showed no visible water. I'll see what the analysis says.

I'm not even sure if I have the room to go the aftermarket route and, quite frankly, I don't want to give VW the excuse to try and void the warranty. I can't get warranty service out of them with the stock setup. I can only imagine the headache I'd have with an aftermarket setup.

FG is there someplace I can send the filter for analysis? I'm going to change the filter and save the old one. This appears to be a common defect with VW and all they want to do is blame it on the fuel.

 

[Filter guy]

Ram_in_Texas

What brand is the filter?

If it is the OEM..the you can ask the dealer to send the filter back for testing and request a service engineering report.

If it is an aftermarket filter..contact the company and ask them to test the filter and send you a report.

Most water in diesel fuel happens due to condensation in the vehicle's fuel tank. This can be a seasonal issue. ( warm during the day, cool at night).

Usually people blame the fuel supplier/station. That can be a source. Especially if they leave the cover open on the tank when refilling it during rain. It's rare an underground tank has a leak that allows water in. Service stations prefilter your fuel for you ( even gasoline). Some will use fuel water seperator elements on their diesel fuel dispensing pumps. You can ask your fuel station about what type of dispensing pump filters they use...particulate or water seperator. Or find out what the part number is for the dispensing pump filter and i'll tell ya..

 

[Dark Jedi]

I dont see whts the big deal in not trying another station brand? it will hush the dealer up quick. which brand are you putting in now that says its the fuel? one thing I learned while in the air force. go for the simpler fix first. most of the time thats what it is to begin with. I should know. I spent 2.5 million trying to fix my bomber. come to find out it was a $.25 part.

 

[Gary Allan]

The deal is that he's under warranty and doesn't want to bear the costs of the remedy. If it was as simple as him paying VW for a filter vs. Wix ..he'd be buying a WIX. His problem is trying to figure out how to prove that the filter is the cause of the issue and not the fuel.

I would attempt to find out who the OEM manufacturer of the filter is (I do not know) and send it to them. They will determine if the filter is defective.

What you may find out is that VW's OEM spec cannot be met with current fuel supplies. I don't know the way your internal diagnostics measure filter efffiency ..but it may be that the fuel you have available renders the VW spec'd filter unacceptable in terms of spec'd performance.

I'd also ask to see the TSB in print and check with another dealer (I know they are not everywhere). This can be nothing more then a greedy service manager not wanting to lose money on warranty work.

That being said, if you cannot get a remedy from VW, then I would install a Wix that meets OEM specs (which it allegedly does) and see if the problem reoccurs.

VW is never going to sustain free filter changes of this frequency/magnetude if it's wide spread. They will issue a new OEM spec filter ..unless it would result in more costs in maintenance for it not being used.

Gotta love that teutonic anal engineering. Perfection interfacing with an imperfect world.

 

[Filter guy]

I would be surprised if Wix built that filter pictured in the USA.

Chances are it is a European equivalent (or Israel) . Same with other US filter brands.

 

[Big Jim]

If it is water in the fuel, the fact that you also buy fuel from the same station for another car is immaterial.

Water in service station tanks isn't dispursed throughout. It exists in pockets. These pockets swirl around all over the tank when the tank is filled and a streak of it can get sucked into the turbine pump and delivered to your car without any other car getting the junk. It is good advise to not fill your tank when the station is receiving fuel. The swirling around can continue for a little while after the tanker truck has left.

If you have water in the fuel it shouldn't be hard to find.

 

[Filter guy]

To further that...

It's more than water.

Underground fuel tanks also have contaminant in the bottom of them. When the tanker truck is refilling the tank all that crap in the bottom gets swirled about like a blender.

So when you see a tanker truck at a fuel station give it a miss for a day.

This helps shorten the life of your fuel filter even though the fuel dispensing pump has a "prefilter" on it.

Ever wonder why sometimes the fuel flows faster than other days when you fill the vehicle? Think of the fuel dispensing pump filter..

 

[Schism]

quote:

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Originally posted by Gary Allan:
The deal is that he's under warranty and doesn't want to bear the costs of the remedy. If it was as simple as him paying VW for a filter vs. Wix ..he'd be buying a WIX. His problem is trying to figure out how to prove that the filter is the cause of the issue and not the fuel.

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Uhh, he hasn't even tryed a different station so how the heck does he know it isn't the fuel?? **** of a lot easier to start out simple, change stations, if that doesn't fix it then you know for sure it is another problem. I don't think it is the fuel either, but it is the first thing I would be changing to see.

 

[Gary Allan]

Well, his assumption is that he fills two diesel powered vehicles at the same station. One performs flawlessly ..one has problems that are fuel related. Changing the filter remedies the engine with the problem. Since fuel issues should show up on both and do not, one would normally conclude that the part that remedies the condition should be at fault.

That would be my reaction. OTOH, knowing VW and germanic teutonic tendancies as they have historically been (remember when they were the ONLY injected vehicles in the USA and the problems that fuels went through?? Creating the continuing myth of premium being "better" for your engine??) I can see this as being a design issue.

Now sure, if he seeks another supplier and the condition doesn't repeat itself ..it would surely imply that his former supplier didn't pump VW spec'd fuel ..although it was perfectly fine for his other diesel. He may suffer longer term problems with the Liberty that he will not with the VW ..or the VW may have far more sensitive components that will suffer for less then (their idea of) spec'd fuel.

Yes, a different supplier would be in order to determine where the issue truly resides. I'd even go to the point of keeping fuel receipts and samples (fuel analysis) to support my claims for warranty service. If there's no fuel that can be run in a VW diesel available ..then they shouldn't be selling the car.

I personally hate these situations where you're placed between a rock and a hard place. You're not going to change the refining industry if all the fuel you get is lame. Fighting VW on something like this will probably take a class action suit like the sludge warranty issue.