nano-boric acid

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timenright

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After so many claims by many companies, how are we to know ...

Here is a recient News Release of a product that has been several years in the creation.

A link to a newsletter from Argonne Labs can be found here and an article from the researcher can be found here and you can search from the main web site from here. I used the keywords "engine friction reduction" for my search.

I am just a regular guy looking for an atvantage and have no idea if I have stumbled onto something or if this is just another snake oil product. I am hoping the experts can help me out here ...
 
As I have told many others, forget about this stuff and use a good synthetic oil with boron esters.

Check the VOA and UOA threads and you will see that boron compounds are already included in most formulations.
 
I came to this web site to find out the truth about a product. Please tell me that before you casually told me to forget about it (blew me off) that you actually did some research because it doesn't look like you did.

This is the "oil additive" forum and if you are going to kill a thread at least provide a decent explanation based on a recent review of the product. I think this product might be different and would like an objective response.

I don’t mean to be disrespectful, I am certain you know your business, I just expected a little more from the folks on this web site …
 
No disrespect timenright, MolaKule is a resident expert, I would take his advise to the bank. I don't think he blew you off, I think he gave you his expert assessment of the product.
 
MolaKule is no-nonesense kind of professional that doesn't over-explain his points. Take his post on their word, and trust him.
 
Molakule, from what you have seen, is Boron a capable replacemt for some of the Zinc in the oil and a better alternative to Moly ? The theory behind it certainly does. But when you read the theory behind Zinc, Moly etc you shouldn't have any wear at all ! But i know this is not the case.....

Yes, its almost an honour when Molakule replies to ur threads hehe. Why i find this site so unique is that there are people on here that are the real deal and really care and know about oil. Good stuff !
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My engine oil of choice is Schaeffer SUPREME 9000 SAE 5W-40. I use bypass filtration and sample every 10-15k miles (the engine is the 2010 Detriot DD15 and it is very tight). I am already doing everything that I can for the engine … or am I? I am not considering the product in order to switch to cheap oil. I am considering it to enhance the best oil on the market.

I am not a “add on junkie” looking for my next fix. I ran across this product while doing research and was wondering if it could actually be different. The report came from a lab doing research for the DOE on the subject of friction reduction for class 8 trucks. The reports are all published and do not mention the use of “MotorSilk” product. To my knowledge they were using the raw materials. It appears the MotorSilk product came from the research done at Argonne labs.

I am just wanting someone with the experience and knowledge to have a look at the work that was done at Argonne Labs and tell me what they think (putting MotorSilk aside for now) …

… tim
 
Hethaerto, I am working towards that. I am still a bit skeptical at this point …

... tim
 
The other attraction with this produt is carbon credits. This is of growing importance to me …

… tim
 
If you continue to be skeptical and do your research (which is a good thing to do to educate yourself) you might have come across:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/boron-additives.57848/

As you can see, this article is dated '03, right after the Argone research papers came out (which I researched as well for this paper), so this is nothing new.

Quote:
Molakule, from what you have seen, is Boron a capable replacemt for some of the Zinc in the oil and a better alternative to Moly ? The theory behind it certainly does. But when you read the theory behind Zinc, Moly etc you shouldn't have any wear at all ! But i know this is not the case.....


It does NOT replace ZDDP, or moly DTC, or SbDTC but works synergistically with them. In an esterified form, as I stated earlier, it aids ZDDP.

Quote:
The other attraction with this produt is carbon credits. This is of growing importance to me …


No disrespect Tim, but this Carbon Credit trading is a *%^$# ripoff and another attempt for governments to tax businesses
using a tenuous (at best) climate modeling theory.

You can't go wrong with Schaeffer's lubricants ( a company with a long history) or any of the Sponsored synthetic Products here on BITOG.

My personal preference for performance and for running green are bio-synthetic lubricants.
 
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Prior to posting, I always search across the forums for existing information. I only post if the information does not exist or if the information is unclear. However, I searched for boric acid not boron. And I really should have searched for nanoboric acid because the technology they are talking about is “nanoscale lubrication technology” or so they say …

Also, the dates from the reports that I have read and the patents mentioned are fall 2007 and 2008. Is this a regurgitation of information in hopes that a market stir will sell more products or is this a new adoption of a known solution? The only people who really know the answer are guys like you MolaKule.

How do you keep up and perhaps more importantly, how do you keep from missing a good product with all of the wolves in sheep clothing? There appears to be more wolves than sheep!

I have a new engine coming, my last engine, which has an oil spec of CJ-4. I want a synthetic with the lowest viscosity rating according to the manufactures specification. My choice was Schaeffer SUPREME 9000 SAE 5W-40 and I was looking for an additive to complement and the nanoboric acid seemed like a good choice.

So, if this is just another wolf, I am moving on … I am looking for sheep!

… tim
 
From the Argonne news release:

"By using smaller particles,
Erdemir created a stable suspension of
boric acid in the motor oil."

I have a background in nanomaterials, and I would NEVER put this stuff in my engine. Why?

Well, it's a suspension---a "colloid," to be more precise. This means that it doesn't actually dissolve in the oil. It is actually nanoscale solid particles suspended in the oil. HUGE difference.

Nanoparticles don't like to be nanoparticles. It is thermodynamically more favorable for the particles to agglomerate (stick together). Materials chemists have to go to great lengths to keep nanoparticles from agglomerating. Colloids are, by definition, "stable" suspensions. BUT, they are notoriously finicky. A colloid that is stable at room temperature may not be stable at elevated temperatures. And generally, the higher the temp, the less stable they become.

So you can imagine in an engine, which is operating over 100 C, routinely undergoing temperature variations, and with the composition of the oil constantly changing as it picks up contaminants, that the possibility of the nanoparticles agglomerating becomes a real possibility. So what's the problem?

Anybody remember Slick 50 and the issue with clogged oil passages?
 
Quote:
Also, the dates from the reports that I have read and the patents mentioned are fall 2007 and 2008. Is this a regurgitation of information in hopes that a market stir will sell more products or is this a new adoption of a known solution? The only people who really know the answer are guys like you MolaKule.


Oh and
welcome2.gif


What MinivanMauler said about colloids is right on.

It is essentually a regurgitation. In the original papers, the particles in the colloidal suspension were between 1 and 5 microns.

The newer colloidal suspensions (due to advances in technology) use particles in the 1X10^-9 meter range, hence "nanoparticles," which sound really important.
grin2.gif


Yes, I would move on and stay with your current oil or as stated before, view the VOA topic and look at the oils which contain Boron Esters, such as for example, PP, etc. The current trend is to use about 50 to 100 ppm of boron esters in PCMO's and 200 or so PPM in ATF's.

Researching and being skeptical is a healthy habit.
happy2.gif
 
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Quite the fanfare there MolaKule – thank you …

I will lurk awhile in the other forums (VOA being one of them). I have some fuel concerns as well but will save that for another day. It will take awhile for me to understand the acronyms.

Thank you for taking the time …

… tim

PS Is that a sheep bouncing? Been looking for one of those …
 
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