mPAO, who is using it in their formulation?

[zfasts03]

What engine oils are using mPAO in their formulations? mPAO is supposed to be superior to conventional PAO, but significantly more expensive. Superior in regard to film strength and viscosity index.

I am aware of Driven and HPL No VII using mPAO. I believe Mobil 1 does in some of their upper tier lineup. Any others? Maybe/hopefully Amsoil sig. series?

Any downsides, beside the higher price?

 

[userfriendly]

www.exxonmobilchemical.com

go to synthetic base stocks then to formulation guide

 

[RDY4WAR]

Driven and mPAO are the only two I'm aware of that use it. It's usually used as a VII as the KV100 of mPAO is 65-300 cSt with a VI of 180-240. The oils that have it contain less than 10%.

 

[4WD]

more likely to find it in industrial lubes like for heavily loaded gear boxes - expensive and much of it a bit on the thick side

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Driven and mPAO are the only two I'm aware of that use it. It's usually used as a VII as the KV100 of mPAO is 65-300 cSt with a VI of 180-240. The oils that have it contain less than 10%.

So it’s more of a garnish than even a main flavor. Even though it’s expensive, do you know if it’s more expensive than VII? Is it because it seems like it would be more miscible with PAO?

Or is it used because it has other crossover benefits that make mPAO more financially or operationally beneficial?

/flame suit on:
Hot Shots Secret FR3 supposedly contains mPAO (in unknown quantity) and Lavon Miller is their celebrity cheerleader testimonial so it can’t just be marketing… can it?

 

[RDY4WAR]

MPAO is used when you need an oil to be rock solid in terms of shear stability where a conventional VII polymer would otherwise fall short or to replace VII for an application where that VII may have a negative impact on the machinery or the rest of the formula. For example, VII will not solubilize in ester but mPAO will.

 

[rondhol]

I think we mainly found mPAO in something that rarely need replacement like Giant Wind Turbine gear oil, that a lot of exercises to do an oil change there.
Most commercial group iv oil are cPAO and that is still better than any group iii in terms of stability.

 

[kschachn]

I think we mainly found mPAO in something that rarely need replacement like Giant Wind Turbine gear oil, that a lot of exercises to do an oil change there.
Most commercial group iv oil are cPAO and that is still better than any group iii in terms of stability.

What kind of stability? Shear stability? No it is not. Oxidative stability? Yes.

 

[rondhol]

Do we have the typical numbers with unit for shear and oxidative stability of cPAO, group iii, and GTL.

 

[kschachn]

Do we have the typical numbers with unit for shear and oxidative stability of cPAO, group iii, and GTL.

I don’t, I was going off the chemical structure.

No oil molecules will shear in an engine. They are far too small for one thing. I have done dispersion experiments where solvent mixtures have been subject to extremely high impact and shear forces (solvents similar in molecular length to lubricants) and they do not shear. In a formulated motor oil it is the multi-million molecular weight VM that can shear or cleave under mechanical force. For example, monograde oils do not shear since they have no VM.

Group III base oxidative stability is related to the level of saturation. There is more than one Group III base that has better stability than other Group III base. The level of hydrocracking is key to that. Yes GTL bases require less severe hydrocracking but they still require it. Group III is defined by performance, not method of manufacture. GTL base isn’t unique, it’s desirable but you can get equal performance out of other Group III bases.

 

[rondhol]

Thanks, but I need a number with unit when talking about better or worse. I still believe that cPAO is still its own class above any group III. That's how API categorize group III and IV base on their chemical properties. It is also one of the reason why GTL is still group III although it is in every aspect better than any HC synthetic group III. GTL is stilll the best of all gorup III, and why we usually call it group III+

 

[chris719]

Ravenol uses it in the RSS 10W-60, maybe others, not confirmed.

 

[rondhol]

Ravenol uses it in the RSS 10W-60, maybe others, not confirmed.

Do we have a confirmation from a lab test or Ravenol stated it? I know that often only a fraction of mPAO is in the oil, not majority of it.

 

[chris719]

Do we have a confirmation from a lab test or Ravenol stated it? I know that often only a fraction of mPAO is in the oil, not majority of it.

I saw it on German oil club somewhere. Not sure it's an official source.

 

[OVERKILL]

HPL uses mPAO in a few applications, as a replacement for VM.

 

[scrllock]

I've also read that Rowe Hightec Synth RS uses mPAO. @ROWEMotorOilUSA can you confirm?

 

[Hohn]

The lightest grade of Spectrasyn Elite is still KV100 of 65, so there's not a whole lot of it you can add and end up with a final product in the 11-14 range.

SpectraSyn Max is more likely to give you a useful base for engine oil, I'd think.

 

[OVERKILL]

The lightest grade of Spectrasyn Elite is still KV100 of 65, so there's not a whole lot of it you can add and end up with a final product in the 11-14 range.

SpectraSyn Max is more likely to give you a useful base for engine oil, I'd think.

That's why it's useful as a VM replacement. Say you have a PAO base blend with a KV100 of 6cSt, at a 70/30 mixture with 65cSt Spectrasyn Elite mPAO, you end up at 10.96cSt.

I think in reality though, you use a heavier mPAO, and less of it, as 30% is pretty high and likely screws up the cold temp performance.

 

[Hohn]

That's why it's useful as a VM replacement. Say you have a PAO base blend with a KV100 of 6cSt, at a 70/30 mixture with 65cSt Spectrasyn Elite mPAO, you end up at 10.96cSt.

I think in reality though, you use a heavier mPAO, and less of it, as 30% is pretty high and likely screws up the cold temp performance.

That makes sense in that context. When you said VM, I was thinking of VII, and that was an improper interpretation of mine. In the context of just dialing in a particular KV100, it makes more sense.

 

[OVERKILL]

That makes sense in that context. When you said VM, I was thinking of VII, and that was an improper interpretation of mine. In the context of just dialing in a particular KV100, it makes more sense.

Well, it can be used to replace VII (used as a VM), which is how HPL's No-VII 5w30 gets to where it is viscosity-wise, as mPAO can be used, in moderation, to make those viscosity modifications, without killing the cold temp performance, is my understanding, which is how you end up at a 5w30 instead of a 10W-30, which is where you'd be if you were using just a heavier blend of standard PAO.