Mobil 1 and grp III continued.

B00SS · Nov 14, 2006

:steps up to soapbox:
I do feel a bit duped by ex-Mobil going to group III. However, IF the new product is better (please show evidence via UOA's) then so be it. When Mobil went up against Castrol, it was decided that group III oils COULD be called "synthetic." So be it. As far as I'm concerned, Mobil could start doing the same thing that very day. However, I was led to believe, by Mobil advertising and other statements, that they were still taking the high road and perhaps charging a little more for it. I was willing to pay a premium for the premium oil. Now I find that they are simply using group III oils, like many others, but charging the higher price, and I am no longer willing to participate. I will simply find a company that continues to produce a group IV oil or I will go to a company that produces group III oil at what I consider to be a group III price. Either way, if ex-Mobil produces a group III and charges what I consider a group IV price, I'm out. My choice, my money. If others are willing to pay a group IV price for a group III oil, that is their money and their choice. :gets off soapbox:

427Z06 · Nov 15, 2006

Quote:

That prompts the question of how stable over time and mileage are the PPD additives? After 3500 or 4500 miles, which oil will have the better cold weather performance, the fully formulated PAO, or the fully formulated Group III?

Bingo. That's why many purchased M1 in the past. They felt assured certained performance parameters would last over extended drains. Not as tested out of the bottle.

Quote:

I prefer to use PAO oils over Group 3. The PAO basestock is slightly superior and thus preferable if max performance is the goal. I'm just reading the test data as it is and it shows the performance gap is not that great.

I concur. I believe it's one of the main reasons people chose to pay the M1 premium, they were looking for that last bit of performance over the long run. If good enough is the goal, there's always SuperTech Syn.

Maybe when Amsoil starts producing a 35K mile oil out of strictly Group III basestock, I'll have a change of heart.

sasilverbullet · Nov 15, 2006

Newbie with some comments/questions - (please be gentle

)

I've sounded the alarm on some Porsche forums about this issue. Everyone wants to know - so what are the pure synthetics, if any?

Could you folks please tell me what those products are so I can pass them along?

Thanks!!!

grampi48 · Nov 15, 2006

What's turned me off with M1 is the way they have answered questions. Instead of answering in such a way that would eliminate ALL specualtion, they carefully tap dance around with their answers in such a way that really says nothing concrete. My guess is they can't directly answer the questions in a truthful mannor that is going to make them look favorable. There wouldn't be a need for all the tap dancing if they could.

grampi48 · Nov 15, 2006

Quote:

Newbie with some comments/questions - (please be gentle

)

I've sounded the alarm on some Porsche forums about this issue. Everyone wants to know - so what are the pure synthetics, if any?

Could you folks please tell me what those products are so I can pass them along?

Thanks!!!

I think most consider pure or full syn to be made up of group IV or V. Group III and lower oils tend to be considered hydrocracked.

G-MAN · Nov 15, 2006

Quote:

That prompts the question of how stable over time and mileage are the PPD additives? After 3500 or 4500 miles, which oil will have the better cold weather performance, the fully formulated PAO, or the fully formulated Group III?

Given that there is still PAO and AN in there, I think this is a moot point.

sasilverbullet · Nov 15, 2006

grampi48 - thanks, I know that part. But how do I find out what oils are group IV or V?

pzev · Nov 15, 2006

There is already a thread on that, but here is a short list of those readily available

Redline
Royal Purple
Motul
GC (german castrol)
Amsoil's premium line
Perhaps some M1s are still IV/V, but that is pure speculation.

AndyH · Nov 15, 2006

Quote:

Newbie with some comments/questions - (please be gentle

)

I've sounded the alarm on some Porsche forums about this issue. Everyone wants to know - so what are the pure synthetics, if any?

Could you folks please tell me what those products are so I can pass them along?

Thanks!!!

Here's a current thread on this topic:
What is still real synthetic?

427Z06 · Nov 15, 2006

Quote:

There is already a thread on that, but here is a short list of those readily available

Redline
Royal Purple
Motul
GC (german castrol)
Amsoil's premium line
Perhaps some M1s are still IV/V, but that is pure speculation.

To be fair, Royal Purple's statement on the composition of their oils is just as wishy-washy as EOM. GC we tested ourselves, and the others are more straight forward in their claims.

427Z06 · Nov 15, 2006

Quote:

Quote:

That prompts the question of how stable over time and mileage are the PPD additives? After 3500 or 4500 miles, which oil will have the better cold weather performance, the fully formulated PAO, or the fully formulated Group III?

Click to expand...

Given that there is still PAO and AN in there, I think this is a moot point.

Given the 43,600 KV @-40°C cSt of the thinner AN, I don't believe the AN content is going to help much with CCS and MRV performance.

427Z06 · Nov 15, 2006

Quote:

Newbie with some comments/questions - (please be gentle

)

I've sounded the alarm on some Porsche forums about this issue. Everyone wants to know - so what are the pure synthetics, if any?

Could you folks please tell me what those products are so I can pass them along?

Thanks!!!

The best advice I could give you, is to have a UOA professionally interpreted of whatever you're using now by someone like Terry Dyson. He is very unbiased when it comes to brands, and can give you recommendations on what is best for your equipment/situation.

outersquare · Nov 15, 2006

Quote:

Several different issues here.

From a Technical standpoint, I would consider the high temperature (oxidation) stability of Group IIIs to be about equivalent to PAOs, at least close enough for the additives to cover any differences.

From a Marketing standpoint, there is no relationship between cost and price (except it is nice when price is higher than cost!). Cost is set in the R&D and Purchasing departments, price is set in the market. The marketer's job is to increase the customer's perceived value through packaging and advertising, determine that value, and price accordingly. Consumer satisfaction is often measured by their sales.

From a Reputation standpoint, a company is judged by their integrity in action. Most companies are willing to sacrifice some margin to gain and maintain a good reputation.

In this case, it appears XOM may have done a great job in the Technical and Marketing areas by delivering a fine product to the consumer at a price they are willing to pay, while increasing margin for their shareholders, exactly what a company is supposed to do. But they may have lost the purist segment of the market in the process. Purists are very focused on value, and very unhappy to pay more without getting more. Hence the high emotions on the board.

Tom

btw, thx for hanging around despite the people getting personal and such.

427Z06 · Nov 15, 2006

I second that. Thanks for hanging around, Tom. You're always welcome "in da' oil hood".

Al · Nov 15, 2006

Quote:

Thanks for hanging around,

I agree

bruce381 · Nov 15, 2006

Quote:

Quote:

From a Technical standpoint, I would consider the high temperature (oxidation) stability of Group IIIs to be about equivalent to PAOs, at least close enough for the additives to cover any differences.

Click to expand...

Very interesting to read your opinion on that Tom. Does anyone else have one? This is the main reason I've always chosen IV or V for use in turbo cars. Can I really get away with using III for normal OCIs in a turboed vehicle?

Agree with Tom and I'll say it again that the practicle dif of a PAO vs a GPIII is volitlity and low temp otherwise about the same.
bruce

SubLGT · Nov 15, 2006

Quote:

Good question SubLGT. Who has test data on cold properties of different motor oils as a function of mileage or usage in general? I've read that those particular additives break down which should cause the cold temp performance gap to increase during usage between a PAO motor oil and Group 3 motor oil, if other additives are comparable. How quickly the additive breakdown occurs is the real question.

In a somewhat heated 11 page BITOG thread from September, on Group III vs Group IV, there was this quote, taken from literature by a PAO supplier:

"A Group III mineral oil with a 0.1% PPD achieves an improved pour point, but to the detriment of the low-temperature viscometrics. You would expect the viscosity to improve with a lower pour point, but the opposite is true. As a result, the jump in the viscosity adversely effects the ability to pump at low temperatures. Some specifications have a low temperature MRV requirement. You see, "the jump hurts the pump."

After looking at lots of threads here, my perception is that a PAO PCMO is still superior to a Group III PCMO in the area of cold weather performance. That would certainly push me to purchase M1 5w30. But if M1 has changed to a Group III, I will be looking at less expensive Group III alternatives. This winter I am running Pennzoil Platinum 5w30, and will do a UOA at the end of winter.

SubLGT · Nov 15, 2006

Quote:

..............Let's allow ourselves for the purpose of this discussion to regard the merits of using Grp III in a fully formulated Synthetic oil (Including PAO and Grp V such as NA. Can it perform the same? Does it provide advantages other than cost/availability? Does it impact long drain capability?

There was a similar topic discussed a few months ago. Looks like the thread was eventually locked, but it is still an informative read.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...part=1&vc=1

abimanyu · Nov 15, 2006

How about those premium ELF oil? I believe the Solaris line? Motul Ester and V series are true synthetics. Hmmm am I seeing a trend towards European brands here? BP top of the line Viscos series I believe is true syntheic. I use IGOL brand from France, I use the IGOL Symbol Ceramic 5w40,check out their website.

Ugly3 · Nov 15, 2006

Quote:

Quote:

My belief is that a mixture of mineral and synthetic oils may in fact be superior to either alone for general automotive use. For high temperatures on the race track this may not be the case.

Perhaps Mobil has figured this out and came to the same conclusion. They may be selling the combination that is actually best for our street cars. Who cares what percent of each separate component they are using so long as we get the least wear and least friction.

aehaas

Click to expand...

I totally agree, BUT the price must for the blend MUST BE LESS than the pure synthetic AND I should be informed of what exactly I am buying. What if XOM was purchasing crude that was cut 50% with something else? Would they say, "...its okay!"

The consumer pays for performnce not the raw materials used.

Mobil 1 and grp III continued.

Similar threads