MMO for Oil Consumption - trying it out

[ARCOgraphite]

Subarus are know to have PCV sludging if not regularly serviced. Fix THAT first, then a couple short OCI with a good GF5 oil and aggressive throttle and rpm. A thinner grade may get into the ring stack better than thick. Ive seen many photos od subaru EJ torn down for rebuild at 200K+ miles that still show factory hone marks all the way to the top of the bore.
But are the control rings gummed and stuck?
That's the Q.

 

[147_Grain]

MMO is a good product and common sense must be used when adding it to the crankcase. IF your oil is already on the thin side, then you might not have much of a margin for error to add a quart or more of MMO.

I agree with Trav and most of the remarks (but not all) in this thread.

 

[cmorr]

Never thought 105,000 miles was considered "high mileage" especially for a modern engine.

Have no personal Subaru experience or knowledge but have friends that own the cars and the run for years even with neglect

 

[Phishin]

Absolutely ARCO....check the PCV valve and hoses first. Make sure you are pulling a good vacuum too...just don't replace the PCV and call it done. I've seen many PCV hoses and intake plugged with sludge so a new PCV was worthless.

Then see what happens with your oil consumption.

I like the idea of adding some MMO to the crankcase, letting it warm up to full operating temps and going out and giving it some WOT runs. The thinner oil with solvent (MMO) will have a "chance" at possibly freeing up some stuck rings.

You could also get some Kreen.

If you do, get 2 quarts.

A piston soak may help.
1.) Remove plugs.
2.) pour an ounce or two of solvent in the plug holes on a cold engine. Let it soak for an hour or two. Crank car over for a few seconds with plugs out and paper towels over plug holes to catch the solvent. this will help it work into the ring lands. Pour in another ounce or two into each hole and let it sit at least over night.
3.) Crank car over in the morning with plugs out and paper towels over plug holes to remove excess solvent.
4.) Install plugs.
5.) Start Car and go out and run it WOT for several stretches. And do it again.

Note: I've tried harsher solvents besides MMO and Kreen. I've used Xylene and Toluene. I've used gun cleaning solvents that are good at dissolving burnt gun powder. If you're using something strong like this (and it works better, BTW), you should change your oil after the soak. When the soak is over, I sprayed fogging oil in the each cylinder before I cranked it over (with plugs still out) to remove any excess solvent. Then spray more fogging oil in it and then install plugs, change oil, and start her up and beat on it.

 

[guyonearth]

MMO is worthless. Just light oil, napatha, and some red color. Make your own by mixing kerosene, ATF, and napatha or paint thinner. There is nothing it can do but perhaps dissolve some sludge or varnish, neither of which are issues in modern motors with modern oils. I wouldn't waste 2 cents on the junk. Of course it will thin out your oil, it's THIN OIL.

The neighbor across the street has two late model Subaru wagons/suvs or whatever they are. I can hear the pistons on them slapping all the way in the house with the doors and windows shut with the air on. My two vehicles are older and probably have more miles, you can't hear them idling in the driveway outside. Subaru is way over-rated, in my opinion.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted By: guyonearth
... My two vehicles are older and probably have more miles, you can't hear them idling in the driveway outside. Subaru is way over-rated, in my opinion.
The EJ engine is good, all modern engines are using shorty, slipper skirted pistons which can be noisy esp. with underadditised oil and all carboned up due to YOU not driving it hard enough. The EJ is a V8-like big-bore with a shorter than 302 chevy Z28 stroke engine. It really doesnt want garbage 5w30 oil. Maybe a good real syn 10w30 or a 50/50 mix with a good 10w40. And toss and forget that OE Subaru "fram" blue-painted garbage filter - a big source of engine noise on the EJ.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: NHGUY
he proceeded to add 1-1/2 to 2 qts of MMO.Shortly thereafter the engine froze up.


That will do it. MMO doesn't REPLACE oil, it's just an additive.

I tried MMO for oil consumption and it did next to nothing. Even multiple MMO piston soaks had a limited benefit. I had much better results (0 oil consumption) with B12 and, more recently, Kreen piston soaks. But even then oil consumption slowly comes back in 3000-5000 miles (depending on oil used) and i have to repeat the treatment.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: Donald

I have posted proof in the past that when MMO was added to diesel fuel the lubricity of the diesel fuel was worse than without it. This was an industry standard test and has nothing to do with running a diesel engine. It only tests diesel fuel as an oil.


I find it very convincing, especially knowing that MMO is mostly made from solvents. Solvents don't have much lubricity last time I checked.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: Donald

I have posted proof in the past that when MMO was added to diesel fuel the lubricity of the diesel fuel was worse than without it. This was an industry standard test and has nothing to do with running a diesel engine. It only tests diesel fuel as an oil.


I find it very convincing, especially knowing that MMO is mostly made from solvents. Solvents don't have much lubricity last time I checked.


Define solvent. All this talk about solvents is just scare mongering!
Almost anything can be a solvent including water and engine oil. Does sugar dissolve in water?

Some solvents can be classified as "hot" and some "cold" so when say for example mineral spirits are mixed with oil what properties does it change in the oil? Does it remove the lubricity of the oil?

Or does it act like lacquer thinner in lacquer paint and just thin it without actually doing any damage, curdling or altering the paint in any way?
When used in enamel it will destroy the paint as it is not compatible.

The thinner is considered a "hot" solvent but yet does no harm to its compatible host.
Keep in mind this same "hot" solvent is used to clean the spray equipment.
The point is even though something is a "solvent" does not necessarily make it dangerous or bad as long as it is compatible.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: Trav
so when say for example mineral spirits are mixed with oil what properties does it change in the oil? Does it remove the lubricity of the oil?


Yes.
By dilution and viscosity change. Gasoline would do the same thing and this is why we test for fuel in UOA. I thought you knew that.

 

[Dominic]

Well so far no abnormalities with the MMO, and thanks for all the input on the PCV... I did change that at 98,000 miles but I may pull it out and check it just to make sure the new one isn't somehow gummed up.

I am not terribly worried about the viscosity change, and it may do me no good at all to use the MMO in the crank case. I figured the mineral spirits in it may reduce it slightly.

Also this car has no oil leaks or coolant leaks. Oil analysis has always been very good, and half it's life it ran 5W-30 Pennzoil Ultra, the other half was Valvoline Synpower.

Eventually I may run Maxlife or M1 High Mileage to combat some of the oil loss over time. I don't consider 105,000 high mileage either, however I have no personal experience in owning a car for so long. Aside from the mild oil consumption, the car runs and looks like new.

I certainly am not expecting a miracle in a bottle, my hypothesis is that it will do nothing for me, but I figured it's about the safest thing to try considering it's not a "harsh" chemical and is mostly mineral oil and mineral spirits.

Thanks again for all the interesting input everyone!

 

[Falken]

guyonearth, bravo.

Subaru would be a serious threat to Honda if they scrapped the boxer.

The ONLY advantage it has that I can see is lower CG (center of gravity).

I love their stately look, well priced, but amazing AWD sysem in design, mechanics, and programming.

The boxer is a POS design.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: Trav
so when say for example mineral spirits are mixed with oil what properties does it change in the oil? Does it remove the lubricity of the oil?


Yes.
By dilution and viscosity change. Gasoline would do the same thing and this is why we test for fuel in UOA. I thought you knew that.


Sure but MMO isn't gasoline is it. On the other hand how many times have engines with higher than normal fuel dilution showed reasonable wear metals in a UOA?
Not that i have much faith in UOA but engines don't seem to be blowing up all over the place with fuel dilution either especially in winter.
BTW it also lowers the TBN but so what.

Your example does not prove loss of lubricity of the host oil.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Virtually every high performance engine and almost every forced induction engine have significant fuel dilution. So do Direct Injected motors.

I have never seen any data to link fuel dilution to engine damage.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: Falken
The boxer is a POS design

Yep you must be right. Porsche 911, VW Käfer, Ferrari 12cyl Boxer, BMW 2cyl Boxer, etc were all POS.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Virtually every high performance engine and almost every forced induction engine have significant fuel dilution. So do Direct Injected motors.

I have never seen any data to link fuel dilution to engine damage.


Please define "significant".

As for the second part, take your case with Amsoil: http://www.tsadvancedsynthetics.com/facts/Fuel_Dilution_Causes_and_Effects.htm

Quote:
Fuel dilution of motor oil can be very detrimental to an engine and its components. Under normal operation, the motor oil film is keeping metal surfaces and their asperities separated to prevent wear.

All of the following can occur if fuel enters the crankcase and contaminates the motor oil:

• Reduced oil viscosity
• Disrupts the oil film strength causing metal asperities to contact each other promoting engine wear, particularly in the cylinder/ring area
• Increases volatility (in very extreme cases it can lead to a crankcase explosion)
• Weakened lubricant detergency
• Accelerated lubricant oxidation
• Varnish formation
• Acid formation/corrosion
• Low oil pressure

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: Dominic
Well so far no abnormalities with the MMO


There won't be unless you use too much. It will NOT improve engine lubrication though.

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek

I find it very convincing, especially knowing that MMO is mostly made from solvents. Solvents don't have much lubricity last time I checked.


No, it's mostly made from OIL (about 75-80 percent off the top of my head I'll have to check) with SOME solvents in the rest.

Next time I decide to run diesel fuel in my crankcase I'll be sure to skip the MMO. In the meantime it works great as an UCL in my ethanol polluted gas and in my crankcase with actual motor oil in it.

 

[Mystic]

NHGuy you can't use too much MMO. I don't know how much oil that van held but if it had a capacity of 5 quarts of oil only about 1 quart of oil should have been replaced with MMO. You said that 1.5-2 quarts of oil were replaced by the MMO. If that van held 4 quarts about 50% of the oil was replaced with MMO. The maximum I think that MMO is supposed to replace oil is 25% . Some of those Toyotas did not have a lot of oil. I owned a Toyota Tercel that had only a a 3 quart oil sump. If a vehicle holds 5 quarts of oil probably replacing 1 quart would be safe. That would be 20%.

Also, if somebody is going to try MMO it might be a good idea to try it in the wintertime when it will not matter so much if the oil is a little thin.

To prevent having problems with a dirty engine in the first place it is necessary to have reasonable OCIs with quality oil. In the long run synthetic oil is probably a good idea. I certainly think it is possible to maintain a clean engine unless you have a sludge prone engine or something happens like coolant getting into the oil. People have taken photographs of engine interiors where they were able to keep an engine clean using a quality synthetic oil. In fact, I think somebody had a photograph of a clean engine where conventional motor oil had been used.

If somebody is going to use a product like Kreen or MMO they need to follow directions. And maybe try frequent synthetic motor oil changes first.

I would say that most of the posts I have seen about MMO have been positive. It seems that very recently here some people have been coming forward with negative posts. And of course we need the positive and the negative. I have noticed that quite a few guys coming worth with the negative reviews are brand new guys here.

In addition, some people have already pointed out that other things might need to be checked, like the PCV valve, or coolant getting into the oil.

 

[David1]

Marvel is a cleaner not a stop leak. You should try ATP 205 Reseal, The best sealer there is. Matter of fact you cant even find it in stores.


Or you can just use Vavloline max life, somtimes that has helped people. However I would look up ATP 205, its awesome and I stand behind it.

Also check you PCV Valve... That can cause problem if its bad.