Mazda philosophy - no hybrids or electrics

[blackman777]

They plan to make the internal combustion engine as efficient as possible (like increasing pressure to 14:1), rather than spend money on researching electrics or hybrids. The other companies can waste money (like Honda's failed insight & failed accord hybrid).

http://www.mazda.com/mazdaspirit/skyactiv/vis.html
I like that philosophy.
Simpler is better (and cheaper).

 

[SF0059]

A Mazda 3 hatch diesel would be the only car that would convince me to give up my paid off Audi for a car payment. Just the thought of that makes me excited!

 

[bepperb]

That's an interesting assumption that those other companies are wasting money... Toyota's hybrid synergy drive has been profitable for a couple years now. No reason to think Honda's IMA isn't, or won't be in the near future.

So while it seems reasonable for Mazda to not make a hybrid (or full size pickup, or conversion van, or any other vehicle they choose not to make) I think you make an assumption that's incorrect, that other companies are wasting resources making them.

It's quite a gamble as well, all we need is a regional event (like Katrina) to spike gas prices 50% and they look like a bunch of idiots when hybrid sales rise and they have no offering in what would be a high margin market.

 

[JHZR2]

Its a nice thought, but the reality is that carnot limits you to a certain point... So you have to get to solid state energy conversion or a way to minimize losses under certain operational conditions where you can minimize spinning losses.

Its great for simplicity, but for efficiency, IMO its not the right path. Thermodynamics tells you whatyou can get. Past that you need to stop pumping air and burning fuel when you can.

 

[Lead Shoes]

The ROI on hybrid research/development has to be nearly a decade by the time you get it figured out. I like the way Mazda is going about skyactiv technology, instead of trying to be hip and reinvent the wheel here with hybrids, Mazda is going the solo direction and going for higher efficiency from IC engines before resorting to hybrid.... id like to see a skyactiv hybrid though, the MPG on that would be interesting...

 

[demarpaint]

I like that philosophy too. But I'm willing to bet as the technology evolves and more people buy into it, they might change their philosophy.

 

[Artem]

Originally Posted By: bepperb
That's an interesting assumption that those other companies are wasting money... Toyota's hybrid synergy drive has been profitable for a couple years now. No reason to think Honda's IMA isn't, or won't be in the near future.

So while it seems reasonable for Mazda to not make a hybrid (or full size pickup, or conversion van, or any other vehicle they choose not to make) I think you make an assumption that's incorrect, that other companies are wasting resources making them.

It's quite a gamble as well, all we need is a regional event (like Katrina) to spike gas prices 50% and they look like a bunch of idiots when hybrid sales rise and they have no offering in what would be a high margin market.



You're looking at it all wrong. If a Hybrid gets (FOR EXAMPLE) 50mpg highway and Mazda's new Skyactiv-G engine will achieve the same 50mph highway but cost LESS to purchase and LESS to maintain (battery replacement?) as well as be more fun to drive at the same time, which would you buy?

Originally Posted By: Brenden
The ROI on hybrid research/development has to be nearly a decade by the time you get it figured out. I like the way Mazda is going about skyactiv technology, instead of trying to be hip and reinvent the wheel here with hybrids, Mazda is going the solo direction and going for higher efficiency from IC engines before resorting to hybrid.... id like to see a skyactiv hybrid though, the MPG on that would be interesting...


I'm thinking the same thing. If the world of tomorrow is going to hybrid route and it's unstoppable, when Mazda joins the bandwagon and adds hybrid technology to their efficient engines, they will be right there with everyone else, if not ahead.

 

[apwillard1986]

I would agree it makes little sense for a company with a comparatively tiny market share to attempt to compete in the limited alternative fuel market. It is too great a risk for a company with just over two percent of the market to invest the R&D.

 

[NateDN10]

The majority of vehicles sold are still conventional - not hybrid. So Mazda, with its limited capital, is simply focusing on the biggest slice of the pie. Seems like a sensible move to me.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Artem
You're looking at it all wrong. If a Hybrid gets (FOR EXAMPLE) 50mpg highway and Mazda's new Skyactiv-G engine will achieve the same 50mph highway but cost LESS to purchase and LESS to maintain (battery replacement?) as well as be more fun to drive at the same time, which would you buy?



No youre missing the point because youre avoiding the thermodynamic aspect of the equation. These improvements arent free either, and carnot is still not your friend. They add just as much complexity, and dont get past the major issue of inefficiency at reduced load, idle, traffic, wasted momentum, etc.

Im not saying this as a proponent of hybrids, as you may know I dont own one. Im saying from the basis of the physics of the situation, and the complexity of the add-ons that try to overcome this (again, until carnot strikes).

 

[Hokiefyd]

Just for perspective, BMW once had a philosophical objection to hybrids as well. Now they have an entire ActiveHybrid line.

 

[whip]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Just for perspective, BMW once had a philosophical objection to hybrids as well. Now they have an entire ActiveHybrid line.

Forced induction too.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: apwillard1986
I would agree it makes little sense for a company with a comparatively tiny market share to attempt to compete in the limited alternative fuel market. It is too great a risk for a company with just over two percent of the market to invest the R&D.


This sums it up nicely.

 

[bepperb]

Originally Posted By: Artem


You're looking at it all wrong. If a Hybrid gets (FOR EXAMPLE) 50mpg highway and Mazda's new Skyactiv-G engine will achieve the same 50mph highway but cost LESS to purchase and LESS to maintain (battery replacement?) as well as be more fun to drive at the same time, which would you buy?


So your assumption is that Mazda will be able to build a non hybrid car that gets the same fuel economy as hybrids and costs less to produce, and more fun to drive at the same time.

Ok, good luck with that one. Let's just agree to disagree. Right now Mazda's sky active technology with IELOOP isn't leading the conventional compact car segment in fuel efficiency... but you're sure anyday now they will be on top of that segment, meeting the hybrid competition... because you're making up specs as you go so why not?

How about I insert my madeup specs into your quote... hey " you're getting it all wrong, if (for EXAMPLE) Honda's next Civic Hybrid has 200hp and gets 60 miles per gallon and costs only 100 dollars more than the Mazda 3 which would you buy?"

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: whip
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Just for perspective, BMW once had a philosophical objection to hybrids as well. Now they have an entire ActiveHybrid line.

Forced induction too.


Things change fast in the auto biz... Mazda site needs an update.

2014 Mazda Axela HEV is currently on sale in Japan. Of course, only Japan.. 70-something MPG on the Japan 10-15. Achieves better mileage and drives better than the Prius apparently.

http://www.technologicvehicles.com/en/gr...chnology-at-the
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/mazda/3/84647/mazda-3-hybrid-review
http://www.autoblog.com/2013/11/21/mazda-mazda3-axela-skyactiv-hybrid-cng-tokyo-2013/
The combination of Skyactiv ICE and Toyota HSD is awesome !

And it can only get better... What's next? HCCI, further thermal efficiency increases etc
http://www.autoworld.com.my/v2/news/nb_details.asp?awReviewID=4505&awCatID=RT.ATC.CAR.FS
...also, Skyactiv CNG being leased to fleet owners.

Looks like the investment in ICE efficiency remains, considering that they're almost guaranteed to be the prime movers of choice into the future, whether on alternative fuels, solo or with HSD.

 

[jrustles]

^sorry the fuel consumption figures are for the more demanding JC08 test cycle, not the 10-15.

Quote:

Mazda said the new Axela Hybrid delivers a fuel economy of 30.8 km per liter (72.4MPG US) under JC08

 

[typ901]

Originally Posted By: whip
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Just for perspective, BMW once had a philosophical objection to hybrids as well. Now they have an entire ActiveHybrid line.

Forced induction too.


and FWD!

 

[bepperb]

Well, there's the whole apples to oranges thing. Sounds great Mazda can get 72.4 mpg on the JC08 test. Then you find out the Honda Fit Hybrid gets 83.2 mpg, and the same Prius you can buy here gets 76.7.... it's really not that Mazda has this amazing technology in Japan that will be coming to the US soon... it's that Mazda has OK technology in Japan, competitive but not class leading. The only thing you missed was that Japan has a fuel economy test that isn't directly comparable with the EPA's test.

 

[bigjl]

In the UK Mazdas of late appear to be based on various Ford products and they used to have shared engines in the diesels, though there were more Dpf issues with the Mazda 6 than with the similar Mondeo.

Though the vehicles available to the JDM are often different to those available to other RHD markets.

Hence why there is a large trade in bringing over Japan only models to the UK.

I brought over a few back in 06/07 just to see what it was all about, back the. It was 220 Yen to the £ though and now it is much less so profit margins are not as good anymore.

 

[blackman777]

Originally Posted By: bepperb
It's quite a gamble as well, all we need is a regional event (like Katrina) to spike gas prices 50% and they look like a bunch of idiots when hybrid sales rise and they have no offering in what would be a high margin market.

Well..... If Mazda can make a gasoline & diesel car get 50 mpg, but $5000 cheaper than a Prius or Honda hybrid, I'd say they are ahead of the curve. Mazda will be cheaper to own.