Margaret Thatcher passed away...

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Originally Posted By: andrewg
Given what the basic criteria of what a good leader is, and taking into account that both Reagan and Thatcher possessed such qualities....


So did Hitler and Stalin, being a great leader doesn't mean he or she will do the right thing or good things. They all accomplish a lot, beyond what normal human would be able to achieve, with a lot of people fanatically do for them even at the expense of their own interests or lives.
 
Originally Posted By: andrewg

Given what the basic criteria of what a good leader is,


Given that these qualities are entirely subjective, aren't all opinions of this or that person being a good or poor quality leader delusions?
 
You have to have a sense of what is good and what is bad. Since everybody today is talk to think that everything is relative people have kind of lost the ability to determine good from evil.

But if you do possess a moral code and you are able to determine between good and evil, it becomes easier to tell the good leaders from the bad leaders.
 
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Given what the basic criteria of what a good leader is, and taking into account that both Reagan and Thatcher possessed such qualities....


So did Hitler and Stalin, being a great leader doesn't mean he or she will do the right thing or good things. They all accomplish a lot, beyond what normal human would be able to achieve, with a lot of people fanatically do for them even at the expense of their own interests or lives.

As soon as I posted my message, I knew somebody would pull Adolph out of the hat. But what can I say? I think it's true that Hitler AND Stalin DID have many qualities of leadership....just not the GOOD part. But alas, I'm out of this thread. It's more about ideology than leadership. Next time I really don't even want to know what my fellow Bitogers think about such matters.....it's very disappointing for me personally.
 
Good, Bad , There is a whole lot of Grey in between.

Was Thatcher Good or Bad?
It depends on the issue and your perspective.

Some Brits REALLY did Hate her.

Remember, She was elected by a Huge majority, but in her second term, she was ousted by her own party (and nobody I know of, Shed a lot of tears)
 
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Given what the basic criteria of what a good leader is, and taking into account that both Reagan and Thatcher possessed such qualities....


So did Hitler and Stalin, being a great leader doesn't mean he or she will do the right thing or good things. They all accomplish a lot, beyond what normal human would be able to achieve, with a lot of people fanatically do for them even at the expense of their own interests or lives.

As soon as I posted my message, I knew somebody would pull Adolph out of the hat. But what can I say? I think it's true that Hitler AND Stalin DID have many qualities of leadership....just not the GOOD part. But alas, I'm out of this thread. It's more about ideology than leadership. Next time I really don't even want to know what my fellow Bitogers think about such matters.....it's very disappointing for me personally.


What I'm trying to point out is that you cannot judge whether this is a good person or a good fit for leadership just by looking at performance.

I am as disgusted by Hitler and Stalin as you are.
 
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Originally Posted By: FXjohn
I imagine a similar reaction when Cheney’s fake heart finally kicks.

thinking thatcher and reagan were good leaders is really 2 dimensional and delusional.

Given what the basic criteria of what a good leader is, and taking into account that both Reagan and Thatcher possessed such qualities....the delusion is your own. I think you are exhibiting an inability to separate your ideology from your grasp of reality. it's a sad pity that folks like you can't stop spitting out venom like a cobra.....even when the target is dead.


you're the one who doesn't seem to be able to differentiate simpleton based jingoism with reality.
 
Originally Posted By: FXjohn
thinking thatcher and reagan were good leaders is really 2 dimensional and delusional.

I'm going to limit my response here because I don't want to skirt the edge of the rules on political discussion here. Nonetheless, one doesn't have to agree with the politics or ideology of people like Thatcher or Reagan to realize that they had "it." They are historically very important, and it was pretty clear, at least to me, that was going to be the case even when they were in power. Mulroney is pretty vilified in Canada and I'm surprised Gorbachev wasn't lynched in the former USSR. Both leaders had some pretty big impact on the world stage (and, of course, in their domestic realms), and in Mulroney's case, with it being relatively unimportant Canada, that says a lot.

We have some pretty colourless leaders these days. I miss Thatcher and Reagan, and when Cheney's fake heart kicks, I confess I'll miss him, too. I also miss Trudeau, and he was on the other end of the spectrum, and even when Castro goes, you'll know a certain era, good or bad, is gone.

In the end, all this topic does is make me feel that I'm getting old.
wink.gif
 
I'm sorry to say it will take at least another 3 generations for Reagan's legacy to be exposed for the fraud and failure it is. I hope yours goes better than ours is. Most Americans don't realize that Reagan/Thatcher led us down a cul de sac
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
I'm going to limit my response here because I don't want to skirt the edge of the rules on political discussion here. Nonetheless, one doesn't have to agree with the politics or ideology of people like Thatcher or Reagan to realize that they had "it." They are historically very important, and it was pretty clear, at least to me, that was going to be the case even when they were in power. Mulroney is pretty vilified in Canada and I'm surprised Gorbachev wasn't lynched in the former USSR. Both leaders had some pretty big impact on the world stage (and, of course, in their domestic realms), and in Mulroney's case, with it being relatively unimportant Canada, that says a lot.

We have some pretty colourless leaders these days. I miss Thatcher and Reagan, and when Cheney's fake heart kicks, I confess I'll miss him, too. I also miss Trudeau, and he was on the other end of the spectrum, and even when Castro goes, you'll know a certain era, good or bad, is gone.

In the end, all this topic does is make me feel that I'm getting old.
wink.gif



A lot of the "who's great and who's not" debate is based on who you ask and whether they are a party of interest of their policy.

i.e. Richard Nixon is hailed as a hero and "the greatest US president ever" in China, for just opening the dialog and establish a connection. When domestically he was an embarrassment for the Watergate incident. People in China talk about Nixon this and Nixon that, just like some of the US citizens talk about Reagan.
 
Well, there are people here who are liberal and people here who are conservative and people here who believe that there is right and there is wrong and people here who believe everything is relative.

But what sticks out in my mind are those people in England who were cheering because another human being, Thatcher, had died. I think that is pretty sad and I think those are some pretty sad people. And I will leave it at that.

The only other thing I want to say is that if I had been a soldier in World War II, and if when Adolf Hitler had died they had actually found his body instead of it being destroyed, I would have been happy that Hitler was defeated but I don't think I would have danced on his remains.

But times change. And people get worse.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: javacontour
There is little difference between those cheering the death of PM Thatcher and those knuckleheads from Westboro Baptist cheering on the deaths of soldiers, first responders and even a teacher from Sandyhook.

http://nation.foxnews.com/connecticut-el...-baptist-church

In my mind, not much difference between either group of knuckleheads.


of course there is. Thatcher died at a ripe old age of 87 and she was suffering from dementia. it wasn't like a young person dying for nothing. no comparison at all really.
 
Originally Posted By: Mystic
Well, there are people here who are liberal and people here who are conservative and people here who believe that there is right and there is wrong and people here who believe everything is relative.

But what sticks out in my mind are those people in England who were cheering because another human being, Thatcher, had died. I think that is pretty sad and I think those are some pretty sad people. And I will leave it at that.

The only other thing I want to say is that if I had been a soldier in World War II, and if when Adolf Hitler had died they had actually found his body instead of it being destroyed, I would have been happy that Hitler was defeated but I don't think I would have danced on his remains.

But times change. And people get worse.

I wasn't going to post on this thread anymore....but after reading your post I must say that you have put things into a perspective that I wish I would have done in one of my posts. You expressed my dismay at the jackal-like behavior as well as expressing yourself without offending. Great post. No excuse for some of the vile things said in this thread....nor the uncivilized behavior in Great Britain.
 
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
A lot of the "who's great and who's not" debate is based on who you ask and whether they are a party of interest of their policy.

All I have to say about that is - bingo!
 
So it's ok to cheer the death of someone if they are not cuddly and cute. If they are old, you are ok with it?

Originally Posted By: FXjohn
Originally Posted By: javacontour
There is little difference between those cheering the death of PM Thatcher and those knuckleheads from Westboro Baptist cheering on the deaths of soldiers, first responders and even a teacher from Sandyhook.

http://nation.foxnews.com/connecticut-el...-baptist-church

In my mind, not much difference between either group of knuckleheads.


of course there is. Thatcher died at a ripe old age of 87 and she was suffering from dementia. it wasn't like a young person dying for nothing. no comparison at all really.
 
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
I dislike her because she sold out the democratic future of Hong Kong by excluding democracy in the future government in exchange for the Business opportunities and the preservation of wealth of Brit institutions.

The recently declassified document shows that she trade out the future of 6 million people for China's picking UK's GE for Daya Bay Nuclear Plant. The reaction of UK government during any international crisis for the BNO passport holder also tells you how their government is merely money grabber and would bail whenever trouble arise. I guess I couldn't fault her personally too much. If she's not in power, probably another UK leader would do the same.

US government on the other hand is like a saint in comparison, when dealing with civilians of its territory. We don't treat Puerto Ricans as 2nd class citizen or ditch them in foreign hostage crisis, at least in the 1980s and later, like the UK.


Puerto Ricans (that live in Puerto Rico) can't vote for President. What class of citizen is that?
 
When a person is young and healthy they feel as if they are immortal. But actually we all travel the same trail in the end, and we all die.

With all of the current fads and the current agendas and with the poor quality of education in the schools, many people have a problem thinking clearly.

But just as today we can write accurate history of the Roman Empire, someday somewhere people will write accurate history of these times. The people who write that history will be beyond the current fashions and agendas. An accurate history of the United States and a accurate history of England someday will be written, even if those who write those histories live in some other country. Maybe a country that does not even exist today. Just as the United States did not exist during the Roman Empire.

Once historians are beyond the current fashions and agendas, they can write accurately. Somehow I think Thatcher will rank fairly high in those history books. Long after the people laughing at her death have long since been forgotten. Or at least Thatcher will rank higher among the historians, whoever those historians will be, than the people laughing at her death in the streets of London who never achieved anything.

Rest in Peace Margaret Thatcher.
 
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