I sheared a M1 0w-40 to a thin 20 weight a couple of years ago on a 120F temp trip to Phoenix in a turbo Volvo 850. The Volvo's bran shut off the a/c because of the drop in oil pressure and the rise in oil temp just like it should when something goes wrong. That was my last use of M1 and I went back to the 5w30 Red Line that I was using before. Experiments are fine but sometimes they don't work. And I know a 5w-10 was a little much, I'm sorry but you get my point. Don't use an average oil if you're going to play.
M1 15-50EP turbo failure, oil related?
- Thread starter Cujet
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Well said Lonnie!
This is exactly what we see in the specs of the currrent M1 15w50 EP. This could easily be accomplished with majority group III basestocks and thus is perfectly consistent with the G.C. Tom reported.
However, I won't strictly blame the Group III basestocks here. Reducing the viscosity of the base mixture, and bumping it back up with more polymeric VIIs is not how I would want my severe duty oil built. Especially since they have Advanced PAOs, HVI SuperSyn PAOs, and high quality Esters at their disposal.
It's all about the cheapest way to make the product. Exxon-Mobil is cashing in on the Mobil1 name at this point. You know at this point I don't even think M1 is even average anymore. And most definately WAY overpriced.
JHZR2
Staff member
OK, all this speculation is fine, but what was claimed by the OP in the op???
"In a previous thread, I had recently had the turbo off for a new header and checked for coking and found none. I was pleased. "
No offense, but I trust the quality and consistency of Mobil1 oil much more than I trust the quality and consistency of your and/or your mechanic's work.
No offense to you - really... but, everything was great, and then shortly after putting the turbo back on (was this your first track day since putting it all back???) the turbo fails?
Where is the human element in this??? Are we 100% SURE that NO mistakes were made that caused or helped to assist this failure? Its all well and good to claim that M1 going to Group III and lesser quality caused this to fail, but guess what... Its not shearing to a 5w-10... As Patman said, maybe a 5w-40... Lots of far more power dense engines run nearly forever on decent 40wt oils, and even if M1 15w40 sheared down to that grade, it is still decent.
A UOA will tell if the oil failed. I doubt that it will show that to be the case.
Ill venture to guess that something was funny in the re-install, that induced the failure. Hate to say it, but human error is significantly more a factor than most anything else... So while it may not actually be the case here, let's at least consider it.
JMH
"In a previous thread, I had recently had the turbo off for a new header and checked for coking and found none. I was pleased. "
No offense, but I trust the quality and consistency of Mobil1 oil much more than I trust the quality and consistency of your and/or your mechanic's work.
No offense to you - really... but, everything was great, and then shortly after putting the turbo back on (was this your first track day since putting it all back???) the turbo fails?
Where is the human element in this??? Are we 100% SURE that NO mistakes were made that caused or helped to assist this failure? Its all well and good to claim that M1 going to Group III and lesser quality caused this to fail, but guess what... Its not shearing to a 5w-10... As Patman said, maybe a 5w-40... Lots of far more power dense engines run nearly forever on decent 40wt oils, and even if M1 15w40 sheared down to that grade, it is still decent.
A UOA will tell if the oil failed. I doubt that it will show that to be the case.
Ill venture to guess that something was funny in the re-install, that induced the failure. Hate to say it, but human error is significantly more a factor than most anything else... So while it may not actually be the case here, let's at least consider it.
JMH
Rather than looking at the oil, which by all means should not be discounted, understand that running an oil only cooled turbo at 20+ PSI for a sustained length of time can ruin it, if it is not built 100% perfect. Is this turbo oil or water cooled?
Also excess crankcase pressure due to blowby can cause funky housing lubrication. You may want to check that as well.
Also excess crankcase pressure due to blowby can cause funky housing lubrication. You may want to check that as well.
I shouldn't be off-topic like this but:
Yeah I know it is exactly...that's why I said it. Anyhow I can't access the Chevron base oil website to check right now but recall that the thickest Group 3's made have KV at 100C of no more than 8 cst. PAOs can come in thin and thick viscosities as you know. I don't see how using mostly that and polymers can get it to 18 cst or whatever it is for 15W-50 EP and ALSO having the HTHS what it is which is not bumped up much by the polymers. Even after Valvoline Synpower started using Group 3, the 20W-50 Synpower remained PAO with no Group 3 (as of the last MSDS I saw) and it's no surprise to me why. I expect the same for Syntec 20W-50. I'm going to have to dig deeper into motor oil formulating to find the answer quantitatively.
That would make you the only one who's had that happen that I've seen and as a turbo owner myself, I've seen a ton of UOAs with M1 0W-40 in turbo engines. 0W-40 from any company is not going to be super shear stable, but you were quick to use it as an excuse to trash talk Mobil. Where's your UOA so all the evidence can be looked into, including fuel dilution and any other bad things?
Well, Castrol has been marketing a 5w50 for years that is mostly Group III. And they make HDEO 5w40 from Group III basestocks everyday. Further it's a piece of cake to make a 5w40 out of 6 cSt PAO. Given this, I don't see how it would be much of a stretch to build a 15w50 from 7 cSt UCBO-7R or 7.6 cSt Yubase YU-8. Heck you could throw in 3% SpectraSyn Ultra 150 and it's probably a cakewalk.
Lonnie- your bias against M1 is so clear you might as well just come out and start a separate "Bash M1" thread instead of posting here.
1. Do you have ANY evidence that an oil like GC (which you suggest to use instead of M1) would have performed better under these circumstances (in this engine, turbo, etc.) If so, please post the UOA evidence. I'm not expecting a response to this.
2. Your Volvo 850 turned off the A/C because, according to the compressor overheat switch sensor, your car was overheating, and there is a known problem with this switch being finicky on these vehicles. This was likely caused by high ambient temps or a problem with your AC system, and had nothing to do with your oil. Are you telling me that M1 caused your coolant temps to rise enough for this to happen, whereas other oils do not do this? If so, I will call a very loud #@$%!. Please explain this one to us, Lonnie.
If you're going to try to inject your extreme bias into responses to posts like these, at least be smart about it.
1. Do you have ANY evidence that an oil like GC (which you suggest to use instead of M1) would have performed better under these circumstances (in this engine, turbo, etc.) If so, please post the UOA evidence. I'm not expecting a response to this.
2. Your Volvo 850 turned off the A/C because, according to the compressor overheat switch sensor, your car was overheating, and there is a known problem with this switch being finicky on these vehicles. This was likely caused by high ambient temps or a problem with your AC system, and had nothing to do with your oil. Are you telling me that M1 caused your coolant temps to rise enough for this to happen, whereas other oils do not do this? If so, I will call a very loud #@$%!. Please explain this one to us, Lonnie.
If you're going to try to inject your extreme bias into responses to posts like these, at least be smart about it.
JHZR2
Staff member
OK, let's discuss this with a mechanical and analytical head.
This is not a bash M1 thread, and if it becomes one more pages will be deleted, or else the thread will.
JMH
This is not a bash M1 thread, and if it becomes one more pages will be deleted, or else the thread will.
JMH
I've read all about Mobil 1 EP 15w50, and it's highly likely that it's not as good as some people want it to be. And I've read that other EP products might also be weak.
But too many posts in this thread do not differentiate between M1 EP products and all other M1 motor oils. If I believed half what I read, I'd throw away my stash of Mobil Delvac 5w40. Instead the stash keeps getting bigger and bigger...
But too many posts in this thread do not differentiate between M1 EP products and all other M1 motor oils. If I believed half what I read, I'd throw away my stash of Mobil Delvac 5w40. Instead the stash keeps getting bigger and bigger...
Lonnie, do you have a UOA showing that the 0w40 sheared into a 20wt?
Turbo's don't last forever. They do wear out and break too.
How many miles on this turbo? who built it? who balanced and clearanced it?
If you are having oil PSI and temp problems, the oil becomes just a bandaid. Fix the cooling, airflow, oil temp, oil control, and all the other problems before slamming an oil.
I've also had issues with certain oil brands. But, it seems that coincidence kicked in full time. After spending some time debugging, I find that blaming the 1st thing is usually wrong.
If you have a problem with M1, don't use it. If your problems continue with other brands of oil, what is the real problem?
Turbo's don't last forever. They do wear out and break too.
How many miles on this turbo? who built it? who balanced and clearanced it?
If you are having oil PSI and temp problems, the oil becomes just a bandaid. Fix the cooling, airflow, oil temp, oil control, and all the other problems before slamming an oil.
I've also had issues with certain oil brands. But, it seems that coincidence kicked in full time. After spending some time debugging, I find that blaming the 1st thing is usually wrong.
If you have a problem with M1, don't use it. If your problems continue with other brands of oil, what is the real problem?
Good idea. I just hope that unsubstantiated claims made on other brands in other threads are given the same treatment.
JHZR2
Staff member
And what if they arent???
We're inducing polarity here, which is problem #1. M1, full size truck and domestic vs. import car arguments remind me of nine year olds fighting.
Nobody has yet to answer my question above - the OP claimed that his turbo was RECENTLY removed, and then shortly after putting it back together, and using it hard for the first time since, there was a major issue.. and that isnt fishy??? Nope - lets just blanket fault XOM's decisions as the cause of this failure... hey, why not also blame it for why it rained yesterday, and why I got food poisoning last May.
Nope, from the 30k foot view, we are so set on arguing the faults of the potential that M1 is group III, that we don't discuss any real, good technical items, and rather than postulate if the failure is possibly oil related (read the title of the OP), we just induce a bash-fest.
Real mature, just great...
Back on track. As unDummy said, blaming the first thing is usually wrong. So lets get over the M1 argument... pretend that GC, delvac 1, PP, etc. was in there instead... so the oil in there can't have fault from the get-go... now let's talk.
JMH
We're inducing polarity here, which is problem #1. M1, full size truck and domestic vs. import car arguments remind me of nine year olds fighting.
Nobody has yet to answer my question above - the OP claimed that his turbo was RECENTLY removed, and then shortly after putting it back together, and using it hard for the first time since, there was a major issue.. and that isnt fishy??? Nope - lets just blanket fault XOM's decisions as the cause of this failure... hey, why not also blame it for why it rained yesterday, and why I got food poisoning last May.
Nope, from the 30k foot view, we are so set on arguing the faults of the potential that M1 is group III, that we don't discuss any real, good technical items, and rather than postulate if the failure is possibly oil related (read the title of the OP), we just induce a bash-fest.
Real mature, just great...
Back on track. As unDummy said, blaming the first thing is usually wrong. So lets get over the M1 argument... pretend that GC, delvac 1, PP, etc. was in there instead... so the oil in there can't have fault from the get-go... now let's talk.
JMH
It's dificult to discuss it if the original poster refuses to adress the question of possible human error.He made it clear that he's blaming the oil and nothing else.
I highly doubt that the oil is at fault in this case. Sounds more like starvation to a turbo shaft bearing which is normally due to a mechanical glitch somewhere along the line that is stopping oil getting to the bearing. And since you say there was little or no coking, it means the oil was not inadequate, just maybe there was not enough of it.
Check the following:
Drain back location could be a cause (keep in mind hard cornering on a track). Blocked feed hoses. Poor oil pressure. Particles blocking the feed passage. Etc etc
Check the following:
Drain back location could be a cause (keep in mind hard cornering on a track). Blocked feed hoses. Poor oil pressure. Particles blocking the feed passage. Etc etc
I was running RL before my problem and make this trip once a month. I tried M1 0w-40. I had the problem and switched back and never had it again is the same conditions. Nothing else was changed and the uoa showed that the oil sheared down. The coolant did not over flow and nothing in the cooling system was damaged. I think that RL was doing a good job and I made a mistake. That switch has never stepped in since I switched back. For my application the 0w-40 is the wrong oil and it's my mistake. If you have any other ideas about what happened please tell me. I've said it before and I'll say it again M1 is a good average performing oil, but for some applications it might not be the best choice. I will never use an oil with that big spread. I don't need the cold weather startup protection, but I do need protection from the heat.
Lonnie:
Since you didn't answer this at all, I'll ask again:
1. Do you have ANY evidence that an oil like GC (which you suggest to use instead of M1) would have performed better under these circumstances (in this engine, turbo, etc.) If so, please post the UOA evidence.
2. Please post the UOA showing your M1 0W-40 shearing to a "thin 20 weight".
3. Apparently, you do not know how the AC compressor shutoff in your vehicle works. I strongly suggest that you read up on it before continuing to post on this particular issue. The AC cutoff in your vehicle is based on coolant temperature- it shuts off the compressor if the vehicle is overheating as measured by COOLANT temperature. You say your vehicle was not overheating (I'm assuming you went by the temp gauge and you also say your coolant did not overflow so you checked it). Again, this switch is a known problem in the Volvo 850s. You say it never happened again. Well, with a sample of ONE on the M1 0W-40, it could have never happened again had you given M1 a few more tries.
4. Since your AC turned off due to high coolant temps (again, look it up in your FSM- this is how the system works in your vehicle) are you claiming that Redline oil reduced your COOLANT temps enough that your A/C did not cut out, whereas with M1 your coolant temps were high enough that it did cut out (even though you say your car never overheated)? Are you claiming this difference is due to the engine oil used? Please answer these questions directly. Don't step around them like you did in your previous post.
Since you didn't answer this at all, I'll ask again:
1. Do you have ANY evidence that an oil like GC (which you suggest to use instead of M1) would have performed better under these circumstances (in this engine, turbo, etc.) If so, please post the UOA evidence.
2. Please post the UOA showing your M1 0W-40 shearing to a "thin 20 weight".
3. Apparently, you do not know how the AC compressor shutoff in your vehicle works. I strongly suggest that you read up on it before continuing to post on this particular issue. The AC cutoff in your vehicle is based on coolant temperature- it shuts off the compressor if the vehicle is overheating as measured by COOLANT temperature. You say your vehicle was not overheating (I'm assuming you went by the temp gauge and you also say your coolant did not overflow so you checked it). Again, this switch is a known problem in the Volvo 850s. You say it never happened again. Well, with a sample of ONE on the M1 0W-40, it could have never happened again had you given M1 a few more tries.
4. Since your AC turned off due to high coolant temps (again, look it up in your FSM- this is how the system works in your vehicle) are you claiming that Redline oil reduced your COOLANT temps enough that your A/C did not cut out, whereas with M1 your coolant temps were high enough that it did cut out (even though you say your car never overheated)? Are you claiming this difference is due to the engine oil used? Please answer these questions directly. Don't step around them like you did in your previous post.
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