Limiting phosphorus- CJ-4 and API SN (cat convert)

[lomez]

API SN has a phosphorus limit of .08% while CJ-4 limits at .12%. So...when an oil has both certifications on the label, I assume it contains not more than .08%, right? At what level of phosphorus would you be concerned about your cats? Also, what about zinc? I understand that zinc is also a cat "poison" though maybe not as bad? Thoughts?

I just had one cat exceed thresholds (101 ppm of hc) and the other is high (34 ppm). Over the years I know I've run a good amount of oils with the CJ-4 approval (such as Rotella). Just wondering, in terms of today's oils, if there is anything to consider (if cat lifetime is a concern) beyond the API-SN?

 

[salv]

With high phosphorus retention ZDDP formulations in modern engine oils, I am not concerned about the levels in any current API certified oils.

 

[JHZR2]

Well, SN has different max limits depending upon viscosity, right? So it's likely self-limiting. How many SN CJ-4 30 wt oils are there that aren't already purposely low SAPS? I'd guess few or none.

I may be mistaken, but I thought SN allowed higher levels for the higher viscosity.

 

[ag_ghost]

What oil has SN and CJ-4? I've just rechecked some Shell and Chevron data sheets online and the CJ-4 SKUs I reviewed are SM, but I'm not the best web reader on the planet.
Kevin

 

[Ken2]

API SN has max P of 0.08% and min 0.06 only for viscosity grades 0W-20, 5W-20, 5w30, and 10w30. For all other grades there is no requirement.

API SN Energy Conserving is the same as ILSAC GF-5 with the multigrades starting with 0W, 5w, & 10W having the limits above.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: lomez
API SN has a phosphorus limit of .08% while CJ-4 limits at .12%. So...when an oil has both certifications on the label, I assume it contains not more than .08%, right? At what level of phosphorus would you be concerned about your cats? Also, what about zinc? I understand that zinc is also a cat "poison" though maybe not as bad? Thoughts?

I just had one cat exceed thresholds (101 ppm of hc) and the other is high (34 ppm). Over the years I know I've run a good amount of oils with the CJ-4 approval (such as Rotella). Just wondering, in terms of today's oils, if there is anything to consider (if cat lifetime is a concern) beyond the API-SN?


What viscosity of Rotella have you been running? If 40-weight, it will have up to the CJ4 limit of 1200 ppm Phos and still conform to SN specifications, which have no limit on 40-weight and above oils.

If oil consumption in an engine is bad enough, I would be concerned about my cats even with 800 ppm Phos.

As far as I know, Zinc is not a cat poison. Since it comes with Phos in zddp, maybe some people mistakenly blame it even though it is the Phos that is the "bad actor". It is the Phosphorous level that the API limits in its specifications, not Zinc.

 

[edhackett]

If the CJ-4 rating is listed first, it will follow the CJ-4 limits, regardless of viscosity.

Ed

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: edhackett
If the CJ-4 rating is listed first, it will follow the CJ-4 limits, regardless of viscosity.

This is exactly correct. As for lubes having CJ-4/SN rather than CJ-4/SM, I've seen both. The latter is more common. I've seen the former with newer HDEOs, such as Mobil Delvac 1 LE 5w30.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
As far as I know, Zinc is not a cat poison. Since it comes with Phos in zddp, maybe some people mistakenly blame it even though it is the Phos that is the "bad actor". It is the Phosphorous level that the API limits in its specifications, not Zinc.


http://www.savantgroup.com/ASTMSym04-PEI.pdf

Quote:
Phosphorus Concentration Reduction and Concerns - A more challenging and debated direction in limiting phosphorus volatility was to limit the concentration of ZDDPs in the engine oil. Understandably, this brought intense discussion among automotive and lubrication engineers about
1. lowering levels of ZDDP in engine oils without considerable field experience in modern high-performance engine durability, at a time when
2. engine oil operating viscosities and levels of hydrodynamic lubrication were being reduced to gain fuel efficiency, as well as concern about
3. the impact of such changes on older, used, and presumably more vulnerable automobiles.

Despite these concerns, phosphorus levels were reduced first to a maximum of 0.10% in lower viscosity grades passenger car engine oils designated API SJ and ILSAC GF-2 in 1995 and then, in 2004, to a level of 0.08% for API SM and ILSAC GF-4.

 

[HighbrowHillbill]

Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by A_Harman
As far as I know, Zinc is not a cat poison. Since it comes with Phos in zddp, maybe some people mistakenly blame it even though it is the Phos that is the "bad actor". It is the Phosphorous level that the API limits in its specifications, not Zinc.


http://www.savantgroup.com/ASTMSym04-PEI.pdf

Quote
Phosphorus Concentration Reduction and Concerns - A more challenging and debated direction in limiting phosphorus volatility was to limit the concentration of ZDDPs in the engine oil. Understandably, this brought intense discussion among automotive and lubrication engineers about
1. lowering levels of ZDDP in engine oils without considerable field experience in modern high-performance engine durability, at a time when
2. engine oil operating viscosities and levels of hydrodynamic lubrication were being reduced to gain fuel efficiency, as well as concern about
3. the impact of such changes on older, used, and presumably more vulnerable automobiles.

Despite these concerns, phosphorus levels were reduced first to a maximum of 0.10% in lower viscosity grades passenger car engine oils designated API SJ and ILSAC GF-2 in 1995 and then, in 2004, to a level of 0.08% for API SM and ILSAC GF-4.

Gonna dredge this one back up. Does the above seem like reliable information? The link is dead, and I haven't seen much discussion on this topic through web searches. I just now was able to log in here and use the forum search. I typed in "catalytic converter phosphorus". Looks like I have some reading to do.

Why I'm asking is I have a couple 5 gallon buckets of 5w-40 Mobil Delvac ESP. Currently in use in our 5.9 Cummins and I'd like to use it in our QX56 as well.

The Infiniti calls for API Service SM
The Delvac I have here says: CJ-4,CI-4 PLUS,CI-4,CH-4/SM,SL

Seems like it should work fine, but I'm still just a little concerned about the stupid cats. I was kinda hemming and hawing about using this without knowing if the phosphorus would be a problem. I was planning on just using it and then I thought I better try to do a little research. The Infiniti was bought used well out of warranty 3 years ago and has just under 150,000 miles on it.

 

[dogememe]

Your car requires API SM or newer and your oil is API SM compliant thus you will be a-ok

Don't worry about the cats unless you have a major oil consumption issue at which point the cats are the least of your concern.

 

[HighbrowHillbill]

Originally Posted by dogememe
Your car requires API SM or newer and your oil is API SM compliant thus you will be a-ok

Don't worry about the cats unless you have a major oil consumption issue at which point the cats are the least of your concern.

Thanks, there is an awful lot of differing opinions out there. Next oil change it will get the Delvac ESP.

 

[dave1251]

The Delvac will work well. If your engine is consuming enough oil to destroy your cat then you have other problems.