Legal Question

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Bernard is doing a heck of a job of sounding like some kink of expert. But his ignorance is really showing. Making up cases you "read" about doesn't make you any more knowledgeable. A criminal case does not follow the same standards or court rules as a civil case. In a civil case an offer to settle can go against either party who turns down the offer because if they don't do better than what they are offered they can be required to pay their opponent's costs. Nothing like that exists in a criminal case. In addition, a refusal to make a statement cannot be held against a criminal defendant. So, the persecutor can't make anything of my refusal to consider a plea bargain.

Plea bargains are not presented in court until the details have been worked out outside of court. All that happened in this case was the prosecutor offered to enter in to plea bargain talks and I turned him down cold.

There is also something called standard sentence range in the state of Washington.

Your feeble attempts to frighten me with nonsense aren't going to work you pathetic little man. I am not going to be found guilty.

Don
 
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Trying to cloud facts with ____ is not going to change any thing in court.
The prosecuter offered you a plea bargain in court, so later when you are found guilty of a felony, you can't say that he never offered you a plea bargain.
I read about many cases similiar to yours, the last one is now serving 30 years.

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for claiming to be an Engineer, you ain't too brite!
 
I just read this thread today. Don't know if a jury trial or judge trial has been chosen yet but I think one would have a hard time convincing a jury of self defense. By far most people, BITOG members excluded, will show their receipt and walk out the door. A jury will scratch their heads wondering why Cicero didn't do the same. They will watch that video and a good prosecutor will point out all the other people who are showing their receipts and walking out the door without any trouble. The jury will focus on Cicero making a move for the door and the Wal-mart employee stepping in front of him to cut off the exit and then they(the jury) will only see the employee being pushed to the floor. A jury, no matter how well they are instructed on the points of law regarding assault, won't see a shopper getting assaulted, they will see a possible shoplifter being stopped and the employee being pushed to the floor. A judge on the other hand, in my opinion, is more likely to consider a self defense defense and is more likely to view the employee's move toward Cicero as an assault.

Just my
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I went to Circuit City last night and set off the door beepers (maybe my new shoes?) on my way in. I looked around and waited but no one came or cared. So went in, purchased what I needed and told the cashier that I beeped on the way in so I'd beep on the way out. He said "You're fine." Walked out and BEEP BEEP ... no one came or cared. I noticed a few other people who beeped on their way out too. lol.

I also noticed that my local Wal-Mart has recently stopped checking receipts on the way out of the store due to the fact that there are just too many shoppers. However, if there aren't a lot of people walking out - the greeter MAY (if he/she feels like it) check a receipt.

Funny how many people beep on the way out and the greeter waves them on.
 
I understand what you are saying about the jury view. You can be sure the persecutor is going to play that angle up for everything he is worth. Its an old lawyer rule: When the facts are against you argue to law, when the law is against you argue the facts, when both the law and facts are against you, get personal.

I am not without legal counsel in this. My initial thought was bench trial. The lawyers I have discussed it with recommend a jury trial. Also, seeing Bitogers as different from the rest of society may be valid, but you have to understand this trial will be in Lewis County, Washington. If our Democrats moved to Seattle and joined the Rebublican party, the Seattle Republican party would become more conservative.

There have been trials where self defense was the issue, including one a few years back where the guy shot a thief to death. The jury acquitted and the prosecutor's office and liberal threw tantrums about it for weeks. On the other hand, a few weeks ago a guy was convicted for murder (on his second trial) when he argued self defense. The first time he shot the guy he was okay, it was the second shot where he went up and shot the guy in the head that got him convicted. To draw a parallel in this case, I would have had to go over and punch or kick the greeter.

Washington law is quite strong about self defense RCW 9A.16.110:

(1) No person in the state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting by any reasonable means necessary, himself or herself, his or her family, or his or her real or personal property.

To convict, the persecutor has to convince the jury the force used was unreasonable in the circumstances using the subjective viewpoint of how I saw things. He cannot justify the actions of the greeter because the greeter knew I had paid for the bicycle and the greeter knew all I was trying to do was leave.

I don't post everything here. There are some significant arguments the persecutor isn't aware of yet.
 
I kinda enjoy these feature length "issues". Not that I get any fun out of your situation - no. But I do like to see how other perceive these things and how varied our life experiences must have been to form our opinions upon viewing the same data. Remember, everybody's moral compass points north. Just ask them.

It does seem that you get the full span of opinion. You get the usual mix of pro and con ..with the mandatory injection of the rhetorical "You'll shoot your eye out, kid" type. I often see this character in stereo-typical rhetorical type scenes in comical ads/commercials "if man were meant to fly, he'd have wings" type thing - they exist in reality too. I find it entertaining ..in my warped sense of humor way. I often find myself thinking of Yoda, as he asked, "I am wondering ..why are you here?". I keep thinking he really meant "On the planet?"
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(lots of random thoughts = longshanks "Who is this person who speaks to me as though I need his advice - causing all kinds of internal laughter)
 
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MarkC, with the "Venus Fly Trap" you're the master of the universe.

I was going for your link to knowledge of pleasing women, not a link to looks. Of course you don't look like Stuart.
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Mater of the Universe?
I'm not even Master of my domain....
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re: Cicero's quotes of Bernard

ahahahahahahahahaha...

BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAA!!!

...and this guy gets to vote? AND be on a jury someday? Only on the internet is such sociopathic misdirected vitriol made so visible. I can only hope Bernard is actually just the online 'fun' personality for some regular guy. Wow.
 
Trying to judge your case is like us trying to be better than the jury on Court TV when we don't get all the facts. It's impossible.

You guys that are arguing principles never heed the advice to "choose your battles"? Is it worth it for "I won't be spending $ 10K on this, although it is costing me money. The lost sleep, stress on my kids, stress on my wife and stress on myself have a cost though and someone is going to have to pay". If this backfires, you face jail time and/or additional big legal fees.

Don't assume a slam/dunk and enjoy the pat on the back from the lawyer. My wife was rear ended, resulting in her getting pushed into the car in front of her. She was ticketed. We fought it with a lawyer and witness and LOST. The judge was having tooth surgery that day and was in pain. You NEVER know the outcome.

Based on the lousy tape and you description here, the persecutor will have a field day with you as follows:

P: Describe the altercation.

Don: "the greeter actually attacked me, you can see him lower his left shoulder as he drove into me, the greeter charges into me and pushes me back".

P: the tape shows the greeter gingery moving toward you, he didn't raise his arms, take a kung fu stance, nor does he appear to throw himself into you.

Don: his chest touched me and he grabbed my arm.

P: So you say that a "bump" and grabbing your arm equals a violent attack requiring a violent reaction?

P: describe how you pushed him.

Don: "I pushed him off with me right hand only"

P: The tape clearly shows your upper body mass moving in the direction of the shove. Which was it, one hand, or a heavy body weight push?

Don "I gave him a pretty good push"

P: First you say one arm only, then a pretty good push, and the tape show your upper body into the shove. Which version is correct?

P Describe your altercation with Tiny.

Don: "the other goon stopped me with what looks like an elbow to the neck area"

P: previously, you stated "In addition, I have no recollection of Tiny touching me or raising his arm at me like that".

Don: It all happened so fast.

P: So, you are saying that you really don't remember what actually happened.

P: Don explain your statements "He was pushing me into the wall".

Don .......

P: the tape shows you NEXT to a corner with open space behind you. Again, you appear confused what really happened.



You get the idea. And, nice as it is that your wife is a nurse, the persecutor has somewhat unlimited resources to hire as many expert witnesses to taint the jury's ideas as he chooses.

Malicious prosecution - ha! The judge has heard that game a million times and could give a hoot.

Not trying to be the devils advocate here. Just trying to show you what three ring circus will develop.

My opinion, this will go beyond the legalities of what the greeter did and will rest on your description of the law:

"No person in the state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting by any REASONABLE means necessary,"

Was your hostility REASONABLE? Why didn't you push Tiny? Did you consider saying "don't touch me, please get a manager"? Was this old man (I assume he matches other greeters - old man with weak back and one foot in the grave) a threat to you? You seem to have sent him sailing with "just a push of a hand". do you have any record of trying to write Walmart about your dislike of receipt checking? Do you have records of talking to WM managers in the past about your dislike of......?

I think you have a tough road against you. A sweet old man with weak back against a guy who is "upfront and doesn't back down". Who cares if the greeter was in the wrong, the jury will conclude that you reacted with UNREASONABLE force for the simple act of not showing a receipt (cue the violins).

Again, info offered as help. I choose not to take sides without all the facts (or fiction). I too, once lived in the fantasy that justice will prevail. Oh sure, officer, you are welcome into my home. Once I tell you the truth, everyone will see that I am right. Ha!

Personally, I would not be discussing this case with the world. EVERYTHING you say/post, REALLY, can be used against you.
 
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Oh geez, I forgot about the police officer. You probably think you are going to rip him a new back end because he flubbed on a bit of investigative work.

What the jury will hear is: with x,xx hours of training and experience in these matters, as a professional law person it was my judgement after collecting evidence at the scene that Mr. Don is a criminal.

And, while I'm on a role, the expert Doctor will not only say that you aggravated the greeter's back problems, but that his back was so weak that it was not possible for him to forcibly attack you. You can counter with your expert witness, and they will come back with two others. $$$$$$
 
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