Just a Rant on Drum Brakes
- Thread starter SwampSurvivor
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Originally Posted By: SonicMustang
Why do you buy brakes from third world countries? Where did you learn how to write?
I call them third world garbage brakes because:
- They are cheap (thus, they are used in the 3rd world).
- They are garbage (because they don't work)
As far as I know, the hardware kit was made in China but the cylinders and shoes I used were made here in the US.
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog
Drums are really difficult to service. Discs are MUCH easier.
In many cases it's actually easier to just convert them to discs.
I don't think they are too hard to service as long as one has a new hardware kit. There's satisfaction in getting all of the springs, clips, pins in the right spot.
But frustration happens when they work for 2 months.
If I had steel wheels on the Jeep, I would have probably already grabbed the junkyard parts to convert it to rear discs. The problem comes with the longer studs needed for thicker alloy wheels. With the discs on top of the hub, there just isn't enough length for the alloy wheels to be put on.
There are longer studs available in the right size and thread pitch, but the problem is they are all too thick to go through the end of the axle shaft. Some people have drilled out the end of the axle shaft (not really desired) or modified the studs (also not desired) to get them to fit.
I have been trying to find a rear disc brake equipped Jeep Liberty with the same rear axle at the junkyard as that would work but have not had any luck in finding that.
Why do you buy brakes from third world countries? Where did you learn how to write?
I call them third world garbage brakes because:
- They are cheap (thus, they are used in the 3rd world).
- They are garbage (because they don't work)
As far as I know, the hardware kit was made in China but the cylinders and shoes I used were made here in the US.
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog
Drums are really difficult to service. Discs are MUCH easier.
In many cases it's actually easier to just convert them to discs.
I don't think they are too hard to service as long as one has a new hardware kit. There's satisfaction in getting all of the springs, clips, pins in the right spot.
But frustration happens when they work for 2 months.
If I had steel wheels on the Jeep, I would have probably already grabbed the junkyard parts to convert it to rear discs. The problem comes with the longer studs needed for thicker alloy wheels. With the discs on top of the hub, there just isn't enough length for the alloy wheels to be put on.
There are longer studs available in the right size and thread pitch, but the problem is they are all too thick to go through the end of the axle shaft. Some people have drilled out the end of the axle shaft (not really desired) or modified the studs (also not desired) to get them to fit.
I have been trying to find a rear disc brake equipped Jeep Liberty with the same rear axle at the junkyard as that would work but have not had any luck in finding that.
I have third world drums on the rear of my escape and they have been changed once in 125,000 miles. Park brake works also.
Sometimes automatic adjusters just do not work well in real life and you have to manually adjust drum brakes periodically. Maybe that is why yours seem to not work well after a couple months?
Sometimes automatic adjusters just do not work well in real life and you have to manually adjust drum brakes periodically. Maybe that is why yours seem to not work well after a couple months?
Originally Posted By: bradepb
I have third world drums on the rear of my escape and they have been changed once in 125,000 miles. Park brake works also.
Sometimes automatic adjusters just do not work well in real life and you have to manually adjust drum brakes periodically. Maybe that is why yours seem to not work well after a couple months?
That has been the case in the past. The adjusters were frozen and the star wheel wore out.
This is all new hardware, the star wheels are correct (adjusters are not backwards, that is) and the adjusters are not frozen as they are brand new and have liberal amounts of anti-seize applied to them.
I have third world drums on the rear of my escape and they have been changed once in 125,000 miles. Park brake works also.
Sometimes automatic adjusters just do not work well in real life and you have to manually adjust drum brakes periodically. Maybe that is why yours seem to not work well after a couple months?
That has been the case in the past. The adjusters were frozen and the star wheel wore out.
This is all new hardware, the star wheels are correct (adjusters are not backwards, that is) and the adjusters are not frozen as they are brand new and have liberal amounts of anti-seize applied to them.
Hundreds of millions of vehicles over 115 years have used drum brakes. Drum brakes continue to be used in all kinds of vehicles including semi tractors/trailers.
Do you think, just maybe, you don't have a clue about how to install and maintain them?
I didn't kill myself driving a 1966 Dodge Charger 426 Hemi with four drum brakes and I didn't crash driving a 1972 FIAT 128 with rear drums. In fact, only one out of 87 guys in my eighth grade class is dead and he didn't get killed by drum brakes. How can that be, we all grew up driving cars with FOUR drum brakes? We should all be dead!
For your own safety and mine, please leave the mechanical work to professionals. If you're too pig headed to do that, at least you can buy OEM brake parts instead of Chinese stuff from Ghetto Discount Auto Parts.
Do you think, just maybe, you don't have a clue about how to install and maintain them?
I didn't kill myself driving a 1966 Dodge Charger 426 Hemi with four drum brakes and I didn't crash driving a 1972 FIAT 128 with rear drums. In fact, only one out of 87 guys in my eighth grade class is dead and he didn't get killed by drum brakes. How can that be, we all grew up driving cars with FOUR drum brakes? We should all be dead!
For your own safety and mine, please leave the mechanical work to professionals. If you're too pig headed to do that, at least you can buy OEM brake parts instead of Chinese stuff from Ghetto Discount Auto Parts.
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Next time they seem to stop working,before doing anything check and see if adjustment is correct. If you have the slots in backing plate for adjustment this is simple just try adjusting them up and see how far you get.
If they are the type where you have to pull the drum to adjust you can use a drum brake gauge to check the measurement of the shoes VS the drum diameter. brake gauge
If they are the type where you have to pull the drum to adjust you can use a drum brake gauge to check the measurement of the shoes VS the drum diameter. brake gauge
Originally Posted By: exranger06
All three of my Fords have rear drum brakes. I can easily lock up the rear tires (until the ABS kicks in), they last a really long time, and the parking brake works WAAYY better than any rear disc setup I've ever used. Drums on the rear are just fine in my book.
Drum brakes lock up FAR to easily, that's part of the problem. Disc brakes are much more linear. Perhaps if your thing of beauty had rear discs you wouldn't NEED ABS. If you understood how drums work you'd know why they are lock up prone.
All three of my Fords have rear drum brakes. I can easily lock up the rear tires (until the ABS kicks in), they last a really long time, and the parking brake works WAAYY better than any rear disc setup I've ever used. Drums on the rear are just fine in my book.
Drum brakes lock up FAR to easily, that's part of the problem. Disc brakes are much more linear. Perhaps if your thing of beauty had rear discs you wouldn't NEED ABS. If you understood how drums work you'd know why they are lock up prone.
Originally Posted By: KGMtech
Rear disk brakes were made standard due to MARKETING, there is no real need for most cars and trucks to have disk brakes on the rear axle.
On Pilot's and MDX's, the rear disc brakes are used as part of the traction and stability control systems. As a result they usually wear out a little sooner than the front's. For my Pilot that meant 85K miles versus 95K for the fronts. Almost everyone else on the Piloteers forum has a similar wear-out ratio.
Of course you could call traction and stability control marketing things, but that's a separate discussion.
Rear disk brakes were made standard due to MARKETING, there is no real need for most cars and trucks to have disk brakes on the rear axle.
On Pilot's and MDX's, the rear disc brakes are used as part of the traction and stability control systems. As a result they usually wear out a little sooner than the front's. For my Pilot that meant 85K miles versus 95K for the fronts. Almost everyone else on the Piloteers forum has a similar wear-out ratio.
Of course you could call traction and stability control marketing things, but that's a separate discussion.
The one thing as a professional I can tell you universally about drum brakes is - if you want to be able to service them easliy along the way, ALWAYS MAKE SURE there is no rust ridge buildup or lip on the outside edge of the drum where the shoes ride. Either make sure it is beneath the level where the shoes ride or grind down the ledge there to remove/prevent it. Checking and adjusting rear brakes properly is almost always a breeze in the future if this is done. Shoes that bind on this and drag or refuse to come off ruin brake hold down pins and shoes when this isn't done. Adjusting them thru the backing plate ( esp. without a hoist ) is always a pain compared to sliding off like they should, properly ground down and adjusted.
BurrWinder
BurrWinder
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: Dallas69
What exactly stops working?
Drum brakes are simple to maintain,so I really don't know what you mean.
Beats me what stops working. The garbage brakes stop working? Best I can say. I'm pulling them apart - but, like every other time, everything will appear to work correctly. I'll put the drum back on and they will work for 2 months then quit again.
So you don't even know? You can't even tell us if the parking brake has stopped working?
Your slave cylinders might be sticky or 1/2 or fully rusted shut. Your parking brake lines could be stretched. You might have a bad rear anti-lock brake modulator. Debris in the brake lines. An air bubble. An air sucking loose brake bleeder.
There is a whole list of possibilities, but don't let our ability to help you stand in the way of a good rant and another useless disc versus drum debate. You just go along ranting and debating and doing your 2-month thing and don't let me stand in your way.
Originally Posted By: Dallas69
What exactly stops working?
Drum brakes are simple to maintain,so I really don't know what you mean.
Beats me what stops working. The garbage brakes stop working? Best I can say. I'm pulling them apart - but, like every other time, everything will appear to work correctly. I'll put the drum back on and they will work for 2 months then quit again.
So you don't even know? You can't even tell us if the parking brake has stopped working?
Your slave cylinders might be sticky or 1/2 or fully rusted shut. Your parking brake lines could be stretched. You might have a bad rear anti-lock brake modulator. Debris in the brake lines. An air bubble. An air sucking loose brake bleeder.
There is a whole list of possibilities, but don't let our ability to help you stand in the way of a good rant and another useless disc versus drum debate. You just go along ranting and debating and doing your 2-month thing and don't let me stand in your way.
I hate to ask but did you possibly get the adjusters mixed up left on right. They are different, that may would explain it.
Originally Posted By: SonicMustang
Hundreds of millions of vehicles over 115 years have used drum brakes. Drum brakes continue to be used in all kinds of vehicles including semi tractors/trailers.
Do you think, just maybe, you don't have a clue about how to install and maintain them?
I didn't kill myself driving a 1966 Dodge Charger 426 Hemi with four drum brakes and I didn't crash driving a 1972 FIAT 128 with rear drums. In fact, only one out of 87 guys in my eighth grade class is dead and he didn't get killed by drum brakes. How can that be, we all grew up driving cars with FOUR drum brakes? We should all be dead!
For your own safety and mine, please leave the mechanical work to professionals. If you're too pig headed to do that, at least you can buy OEM brake parts instead of Chinese stuff from Ghetto Discount Auto Parts.
I'm glad you are insulting my intelligence over a poor design that is not mine.
I think if I walked in to a dealer and asked for rear brake parts for a 15 year old vehicle, I'd be laughed out. But , as I stated before, most of the components are made in USA. The brake shoes are not the cheapies, either.
I'd also like to say that it is not this vehicle in particular. It has been a few different vehicles, brought to different professional mechanics and dealers as well.
All a mechanic is going to do is throw the same exact parts right back at it as I did, it will work for a few months and that is it.
When I get home from work tonight, I am pulling it apart again. I will make sure to grab pictures to prove that nothing is in backwards
Originally Posted By: BurrWinder
The one thing as a professional I can tell you universally about drum brakes is - if you want to be able to service them easliy along the way, ALWAYS MAKE SURE there is no rust ridge buildup or lip on the outside edge of the drum where the shoes ride. Either make sure it is beneath the level where the shoes ride or grind down the ledge there to remove/prevent it. Checking and adjusting rear brakes properly is almost always a breeze in the future if this is done. Shoes that bind on this and drag or refuse to come off ruin brake hold down pins and shoes when this isn't done. Adjusting them thru the backing plate ( esp. without a hoist ) is always a pain compared to sliding off like they should, properly ground down and adjusted.
BurrWinder
There was a slight ridge, but that was removed and I scuffed the surface with some coarse sand paper. Generally when I do the drum brakes, I adjust them out until I can barely side the drum on with no resistance, then jack it up and have a go at the adjusting wheels. Once I start to get some resistance I leave it. The auto adjusters should take over from there.
Originally Posted By: HangFire
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: Dallas69
What exactly stops working?
Drum brakes are simple to maintain,so I really don't know what you mean.
Beats me what stops working. The garbage brakes stop working? Best I can say. I'm pulling them apart - but, like every other time, everything will appear to work correctly. I'll put the drum back on and they will work for 2 months then quit again.
So you don't even know? You can't even tell us if the parking brake has stopped working?
Your slave cylinders might be sticky or 1/2 or fully rusted shut. Your parking brake lines could be stretched. You might have a bad rear anti-lock brake modulator. Debris in the brake lines. An air bubble. An air sucking loose brake bleeder.
There is a whole list of possibilities, but don't let our ability to help you stand in the way of a good rant and another useless disc versus drum debate. You just go along ranting and debating and doing your 2-month thing and don't let me stand in your way.
The parking brake does not hold, but the cable does pull on the shoe and it moves. The whole thing is set up per the factory service manual.
Wheel cylinders are new as of last year. Bled them with no issues. I replaced them when I replaced the brakes lines out of preventive maintenance. The joys of living in the rustbelt
Same as before - they worked shortly and stopped. If I adjust the brakes out, they will work fine.
For some reason, they always back off the adjuster. While the adjusters can be put in both ways, there is only one position where the arm will come in contact with the wheel. I suspect that's what happened this time.
The studs in the bottom of the shoe, the adjuster arm, adjuster cable and adjuster are all brand new. Drum brakes are so cheap, it's almost foolish to NOT replace the hardware when servicing them.
Hundreds of millions of vehicles over 115 years have used drum brakes. Drum brakes continue to be used in all kinds of vehicles including semi tractors/trailers.
Do you think, just maybe, you don't have a clue about how to install and maintain them?
I didn't kill myself driving a 1966 Dodge Charger 426 Hemi with four drum brakes and I didn't crash driving a 1972 FIAT 128 with rear drums. In fact, only one out of 87 guys in my eighth grade class is dead and he didn't get killed by drum brakes. How can that be, we all grew up driving cars with FOUR drum brakes? We should all be dead!
For your own safety and mine, please leave the mechanical work to professionals. If you're too pig headed to do that, at least you can buy OEM brake parts instead of Chinese stuff from Ghetto Discount Auto Parts.
I'm glad you are insulting my intelligence over a poor design that is not mine.
I think if I walked in to a dealer and asked for rear brake parts for a 15 year old vehicle, I'd be laughed out. But , as I stated before, most of the components are made in USA. The brake shoes are not the cheapies, either.
I'd also like to say that it is not this vehicle in particular. It has been a few different vehicles, brought to different professional mechanics and dealers as well.
All a mechanic is going to do is throw the same exact parts right back at it as I did, it will work for a few months and that is it.
When I get home from work tonight, I am pulling it apart again. I will make sure to grab pictures to prove that nothing is in backwards
Originally Posted By: BurrWinder
The one thing as a professional I can tell you universally about drum brakes is - if you want to be able to service them easliy along the way, ALWAYS MAKE SURE there is no rust ridge buildup or lip on the outside edge of the drum where the shoes ride. Either make sure it is beneath the level where the shoes ride or grind down the ledge there to remove/prevent it. Checking and adjusting rear brakes properly is almost always a breeze in the future if this is done. Shoes that bind on this and drag or refuse to come off ruin brake hold down pins and shoes when this isn't done. Adjusting them thru the backing plate ( esp. without a hoist ) is always a pain compared to sliding off like they should, properly ground down and adjusted.
BurrWinder
There was a slight ridge, but that was removed and I scuffed the surface with some coarse sand paper. Generally when I do the drum brakes, I adjust them out until I can barely side the drum on with no resistance, then jack it up and have a go at the adjusting wheels. Once I start to get some resistance I leave it. The auto adjusters should take over from there.
Originally Posted By: HangFire
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: Dallas69
What exactly stops working?
Drum brakes are simple to maintain,so I really don't know what you mean.
Beats me what stops working. The garbage brakes stop working? Best I can say. I'm pulling them apart - but, like every other time, everything will appear to work correctly. I'll put the drum back on and they will work for 2 months then quit again.
So you don't even know? You can't even tell us if the parking brake has stopped working?
Your slave cylinders might be sticky or 1/2 or fully rusted shut. Your parking brake lines could be stretched. You might have a bad rear anti-lock brake modulator. Debris in the brake lines. An air bubble. An air sucking loose brake bleeder.
There is a whole list of possibilities, but don't let our ability to help you stand in the way of a good rant and another useless disc versus drum debate. You just go along ranting and debating and doing your 2-month thing and don't let me stand in your way.
The parking brake does not hold, but the cable does pull on the shoe and it moves. The whole thing is set up per the factory service manual.
Wheel cylinders are new as of last year. Bled them with no issues. I replaced them when I replaced the brakes lines out of preventive maintenance. The joys of living in the rustbelt
For some reason, they always back off the adjuster. While the adjusters can be put in both ways, there is only one position where the arm will come in contact with the wheel. I suspect that's what happened this time.
The studs in the bottom of the shoe, the adjuster arm, adjuster cable and adjuster are all brand new. Drum brakes are so cheap, it's almost foolish to NOT replace the hardware when servicing them.
In regards to Miller88's issues...
Alot of vehicles' self adjusters don't self adjust really well as many cars aren't driven in a manner that allows them to adjust like they should or the vehicles are very light, do not use the parking brake, etc. - it varies with manufacturer. I usually "touch up" the adjustment whenever I rotate the tires or have the wheel off in this fashion. If this is a reason why "3rd world brakes" don't work this would help with pedal height and stopping ability. If you are having issues other than this ( such as hydraulic issues/seizing) I believe we would need more info to help you.
BurrWinder
Alot of vehicles' self adjusters don't self adjust really well as many cars aren't driven in a manner that allows them to adjust like they should or the vehicles are very light, do not use the parking brake, etc. - it varies with manufacturer. I usually "touch up" the adjustment whenever I rotate the tires or have the wheel off in this fashion. If this is a reason why "3rd world brakes" don't work this would help with pedal height and stopping ability. If you are having issues other than this ( such as hydraulic issues/seizing) I believe we would need more info to help you.
BurrWinder
In regards to Miller88's issues...
Alot of vehicles' self adjusters don't self adjust really well as many cars aren't driven in a manner that allows them to adjust like they should or the vehicles are very light, do not use the parking brake, etc. - it varies with manufacturer. I usually "touch up" the adjustment whenever I rotate the tires or have the wheel off in this fashion. If this is a reason why "3rd world brakes" don't work this would help with pedal height and stopping ability. If you are having issues other than this ( such as hydraulic issues/seizing) I believe we would need more info to help you.
BurrWinder
Alot of vehicles' self adjusters don't self adjust really well as many cars aren't driven in a manner that allows them to adjust like they should or the vehicles are very light, do not use the parking brake, etc. - it varies with manufacturer. I usually "touch up" the adjustment whenever I rotate the tires or have the wheel off in this fashion. If this is a reason why "3rd world brakes" don't work this would help with pedal height and stopping ability. If you are having issues other than this ( such as hydraulic issues/seizing) I believe we would need more info to help you.
BurrWinder
unless you track you car at high speeds and constant, hard braking, you really don't need rear disks.
I grew up with 4 wheel disks on my dad's Volvo's since the first 73 145.
Since then I've owned cars with rear disks and drums (and bmw's with parking drums INSIDE the disks). For 90% of the driving I do, I honestly don't see much benefit of rear disks.
The 97 Escort I had as well as the current 07 Focus both have rear drums and they are quite easy to maintain. The only issue is once in a while there's a squeak that develops when lifting OFF the brakes. This is usually remedied with a dab of brake grease on the backside of the shoes, as they slide across the backing plate.
I grew up with 4 wheel disks on my dad's Volvo's since the first 73 145.
Since then I've owned cars with rear disks and drums (and bmw's with parking drums INSIDE the disks). For 90% of the driving I do, I honestly don't see much benefit of rear disks.
The 97 Escort I had as well as the current 07 Focus both have rear drums and they are quite easy to maintain. The only issue is once in a while there's a squeak that develops when lifting OFF the brakes. This is usually remedied with a dab of brake grease on the backside of the shoes, as they slide across the backing plate.
Originally Posted By: BurrWinder
In regards to Miller88's issues...
Alot of vehicles' self adjusters don't self adjust really well as many cars aren't driven in a manner that allows them to adjust like they should or the vehicles are very light, do not use the parking brake, etc. - it varies with manufacturer. I usually "touch up" the adjustment whenever I rotate the tires or have the wheel off in this fashion. If this is a reason why "3rd world brakes" don't work this would help with pedal height and stopping ability. If you are having issues other than this ( such as hydraulic issues/seizing) I believe we would need more info to help you.
BurrWinder
I probably should have mentioned it - but I can almost guarantee that they backed off. That has always been the case in the past. That is why, this time, I sprung for the full hardware kit.
In regards to Miller88's issues...
Alot of vehicles' self adjusters don't self adjust really well as many cars aren't driven in a manner that allows them to adjust like they should or the vehicles are very light, do not use the parking brake, etc. - it varies with manufacturer. I usually "touch up" the adjustment whenever I rotate the tires or have the wheel off in this fashion. If this is a reason why "3rd world brakes" don't work this would help with pedal height and stopping ability. If you are having issues other than this ( such as hydraulic issues/seizing) I believe we would need more info to help you.
BurrWinder
I probably should have mentioned it - but I can almost guarantee that they backed off. That has always been the case in the past. That is why, this time, I sprung for the full hardware kit.
I appreciate a "good" high brake pedal as well and when they are newly adjusted - especially fairly snug "brushing" when the wheel is turned. But if that is how they are set up and you like that, they may - due to poor design/lubing/backing plate rust/ridges - soon not be adjusted "in that way" that you like them... if you will. They can be quite tight and still be driveable with ABS systems keeping them from locking up. In that case if you find nothing else wrong, your only choice may be to adjust them manually more often. Maybe you drive and brake "like you stole it" ? Not an accusation, just possibly a reason why they are "not working" as you state ?
BurrWinder
BurrWinder
I've had parking brake cables be rusted tight, have limited movement and be stretched, cause all types of difficulty with rear drum brakes. This can result in the drums being hard to re-assemble, drag, be loose, or any sort of weirdness.
Make sure the cables move fully and are adjusted at the pedal/lever.
Make sure the cables move fully and are adjusted at the pedal/lever.
Originally Posted By: BurrWinder
I appreciate a "good" high brake pedal as well and when they are newly adjusted - especially fairly snug "brushing" when the wheel is turned. But if that is how they are set up and you like that, they may - due to poor design/lubing/backing plate rust/ridges - soon not be adjusted "in that way" that you like them... if you will. They can be quite tight and still be driveable with ABS systems keeping them from locking up. In that case if you find nothing else wrong, your only choice may be to adjust them manually more often. Maybe you drive and brake "like you stole it" ? Not an accusation, just possibly a reason why they are "not working" as you state ?
BurrWinder
It's a lifted Jeep. If I drove it like that, I'd end up with it on its side or roof!
No abs, luckily. Or traction / stability control.
Originally Posted By: JamesBond
I've had parking brake cables be rusted tight, have limited movement and be stretched, cause all types of difficulty with rear drum brakes. This can result in the drums being hard to re-assemble, drag, be loose, or any sort of weirdness.
Make sure the cables move fully and are adjusted at the pedal/lever.
I have verified parking brake cable operation. They were working back in April when I did the rear brakes. Kind of a weird setup - but there are two individual cables that come off of the end of the lever going to each wheel. They were working then. The parking brake actually worked up until last week.
I appreciate a "good" high brake pedal as well and when they are newly adjusted - especially fairly snug "brushing" when the wheel is turned. But if that is how they are set up and you like that, they may - due to poor design/lubing/backing plate rust/ridges - soon not be adjusted "in that way" that you like them... if you will. They can be quite tight and still be driveable with ABS systems keeping them from locking up. In that case if you find nothing else wrong, your only choice may be to adjust them manually more often. Maybe you drive and brake "like you stole it" ? Not an accusation, just possibly a reason why they are "not working" as you state ?
BurrWinder
It's a lifted Jeep. If I drove it like that, I'd end up with it on its side or roof!
No abs, luckily. Or traction / stability control.
Originally Posted By: JamesBond
I've had parking brake cables be rusted tight, have limited movement and be stretched, cause all types of difficulty with rear drum brakes. This can result in the drums being hard to re-assemble, drag, be loose, or any sort of weirdness.
Make sure the cables move fully and are adjusted at the pedal/lever.
I have verified parking brake cable operation. They were working back in April when I did the rear brakes. Kind of a weird setup - but there are two individual cables that come off of the end of the lever going to each wheel. They were working then. The parking brake actually worked up until last week.
Drum brakes can be done correctly, but they have to be done to a T.
I learned the hard way after being forced to redo my Taurus's drums with factory drums and friction material.
I learned the hard way after being forced to redo my Taurus's drums with factory drums and friction material.
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