Japan not too happy with GF-4 Oils ?

[Anthony]

Many nissan engines use tensioners that adjust to oil pressure.
My question is do these type of engines lose there optimum timing settings over time or would they maitain them despite a little chain stretch?
I can understand why many pushrod engines would be off a bit because they just have the sprockets and chain and no tensioner I believe.
PLease correct me if im wrong im just trying to learn.

On my now totaled 97 nissan hardbody, I could let it sit over night and open the oil cap and I could stick my finger in there and wiggle the chain around and there was alot of play. I could then start it for a min and then shut it off and stick my finger back in there and the chain would be extremely tight and I could not budge it.
This truck had 150k on it and ran great with no oil usage on M1 5w30.

 

[GSV]

For the Nissan truck guys,

Courtesy Parts out of Texas sells "kits" with everything needed to overhaul the entire timing chain assemblies.

This link is for the 98-04 Frontier, they may have kits for HBs, 720s, 620s etc.
Timing chain parts for KA24DE

Anthony, fondling your timing chains may get you jail time in some jurisdictions.

[ April 30, 2005, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: GSV ]

 

[n8wvi]

quote:

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Originally posted by 427Z06:
I wouldn't mind it so much if it didn't take an entire day of disassembly with "special tools" to get to the belt, and another day to put it back together.

I remember the first timing belt I changed on a VW Golf. Did it while changing the oil. Took an extra half hour. If they were all this easy, I wouldn't mind it, as there are some efficiency and NVH advantages.

---

Subaru's are STILL that easy

Dave

 

[the_oil_dealer]

my car has a pretty long belt (V6) not only is it quiet but I would imagine it would last considerably longer than a 4-cyl belt, due to more surface for it to wear on, averaged through the length of the belt. I'v seen belts go for 250,000k KMs before breaking, and this is on shorter 4cyl belts! All you need is a good non-interference engine and a quality belt, and I would have no problem waiting for it to break.

 

[brianl703]

quote:

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Originally posted by 427Z06:
I wouldn't mind it so much if it didn't take an entire day of disassembly with "special tools" to get to the belt, and another day to put it back together.

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I did a timing belt replacement on my brother's old 1993 Ford Escort. That can be done in a couple of hours, including the waterpump replacement. No special tools needed. I used a jack to support the engine since the motor mount must be removed to get the timing belt cover off.

 

[JohnBrowning]

427Z06, It is really the HTHS not so much the SAE viscosity. IT just happens that while HTHS and SAE viscoisty are not linear all things being equal an increase of the one usualy reflects an increase in the other. I love your selective qouteing as well!!! You would think that since my post was so short you could have qouted to entire post as opposed to the just the top and bottom of the post!!

427Z06 their is a huge body of reserach on all of the items in my post. All can be had from SAE. I can not post a link as the papers require you to have an account with them. I used to have access to them but now I do not! Timeing chain wear is well studied and understood. Their are even papers on the internet floating around in violation of copy right of Japanesse concerns about 5W20 oils and lower phosphurous levels on premature timeing chain wear!

You can also look at non ASTM timeing chain wear research done in Japan. I am not a pack rate and do not save links like a squirel saves nuts! I read the information and move on.

You can reason that since a timeing chian is constantly rubing against a sprocket that it is a high shear zone! Any high shear zone is going to be affected by HTHS or a lack of it! While a chain is not as bad as gears on gears or a flat tapet etc... it is still a high shear area. I would also point out that few OEM chains are what we would call a roller chain.

 

[brianl703]

quote:

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Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
I would also point out that few OEM chains are what we would call a roller chain.

---

We were discussing chain "stretch" before. Here is some relevant information about that AND roller chains:

According to "The Official Mustang 5.0 Technical Reference and Performance Handbook" (which is a very good reference book for all things Mustang 5.0):

..."Because those [police car] five-eight "enforcement" engines were usually operated at extremes (both idle and high rpm) for prolonged periods, their timing chains tended to stretch prematurely. Ford's replacement roller chain offered superior service life as well as improved timing accuracy. (By dyno testing a 302 for only six hours under power, Ford had determined that the old [Morse link] silent chain stretched and loosened to the point where output dropped by nearly 6 horsepower. With a roller chain, test engines were able to run wide open for 100 hours with virtually no power loss from cam drive deterioration.)"

It goes on to say that the roller chain continued to be used in Mustang 5.0 service from 1982 until 1994.

 

[Cyprs]

A year ago my father had a 92 Chev Corsica, he put 300K on that little 4 banger and still sold it for a good buck. Prior to the sale my brother a mechanic took that time chain off expecting a replacement, on inspection it was like new, he put it back and car still runs great.

The Nissan time chain system is proven, but, change it at Nissan's requested 320K kms or 210k miles. In Canada, the average lease agreement is about 25K kms per year, that is average I drive per year, at that rate I wont change my time chain for 13 years. My low yearly Km rate is I drive a diesel too.

As I said earlier, I got a chain kit for my 720 series Datsun, cool system, two sprocket adjustements before changing chain change, will never change it again for life of vehicle, did it for 100 bucks CaN. at about 200K.

Some may get away with going longer than 320k on new Nissan chains but I understand that perfectly good Nissan engines in every other aspect can pile up due to extending the Nissan recommended 320K on chain.

Cyprs

 

[Cyprs]

Of interest, anyone considering changing their chain on a 720 series Datsun/Nissan, support that spring tensioner half way down the timing casing, if you dont, get your fishing rod ready to fish it out and put away a few ours taking everything apart to set it back in place after the fishing expedition stops. Little nasty lesson I learned first hand.

Cyprs

 

[jsharp]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cyprs:
Of interest, anyone considering changing their chain on a 720 series Datsun/Nissan, support that spring tensioner half way down the timing casing, if you dont, get your fishing rod ready to fish it out and put away a few ours taking everything apart to set it back in place after the fishing expedition stops. Little nasty lesson I learned first hand.

Cyprs

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Nissan has a factory special tool for this. It's a wedge shaped piece of wood. You drive it in between each side of the chain to lock it against the timing cover and keep it from going slack below. I made one out of a 1" X 4"...

 

[Anthony]

Cyprs, did your dealer tell you that they had to be changed at that milege?
In my frontier catalog it says mantinence free steel timing chain and they used to state it on there website as well.

 

[427Z06]

quote:

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Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
427Z06, It is really the HTHS not so much the SAE viscosity. IT just happens that while HTHS and SAE viscoisty are not linear all things being equal an increase of the one usualy reflects an increase in the other. I love your selective qouteing as well!!! You would think that since my post was so short you could have qouted to entire post as opposed to the just the top and bottom of the post!!

---

The selective quoting was intentional. From what I recall from reading similar papers (probably the same ones), it was the combination of lowered HTHS and lowered additive levels. Not just different viscosity grades of oil.

quote:

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Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
427Z06 their is a huge body of reserach on all of the items in my post. All can be had from SAE. I can not post a link as the papers require you to have an account with them. I used to have access to them but now I do not! Timeing chain wear is well studied and understood. Their are even papers on the internet floating around in violation of copy right of Japanesse concerns about 5W20 oils and lower phosphurous levels on premature timeing chain wear!

You can also look at non ASTM timeing chain wear research done in Japan. I am not a pack rate and do not save links like a squirel saves nuts! I read the information and move on.

You can reason that since a timeing chian is constantly rubing against a sprocket that it is a high shear zone! Any high shear zone is going to be affected by HTHS or a lack of it! While a chain is not as bad as gears on gears or a flat tapet etc... it is still a high shear area. I would also point out that few OEM chains are what we would call a roller chain.

---

Blah, blah, blah.

John, the problem is people read things and interpret them through their own personal filters. That's the reason I like to read the actual paper instead of someone's interpretation of it. And don't think I'm picking on you, I asked the same of Dr. Hass and many others. If you don't have the references, fine, just say so and qualify your position that it is from memory and it's your interpretation.

But if you make a statement like it's a well established irrefutable fact such as, "using a SAE 30 instead of a SAE 50 is going to wear your timing chain out", expect to get challenged on it for the details.

Capiche?

 

[Amkeer]

Well I have both chains and belt. One thing to remember is the water pump needs to be replaced at some point. With a water pump replacement the belt is only $30. That being said I have never had to replace a water pump on my vehicles, but I have had a timing belt snap at 80,000 miles.

Chains are noisier than belts. My personal preference is a belt.

 

[cousincletus]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cyprs:
Of interest, anyone considering changing their chain on a 720 series Datsun/Nissan, support that spring tensioner half way down the timing casing, if you dont, get your fishing rod ready to fish it out and put away a few ours taking everything apart to set it back in place after the fishing expedition stops. Little nasty lesson I learned first hand.

Cyprs

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The Haynes manual shows how to make the wedge. That engine is a real PITA to work on. I helped someone change a head gasket on a Datsun 720 p/u. It wasn't much fun.

 

[TooSlick]

I ran some of the Amsoil 5w-20 for 6500 miles in my timing chain equipped, 2.4L Tacoma motor. As I recall, the iron wear was only 7 ppm and chrome wear was 0 ppm. Following this I ran some of the Synergyn, 0w-20 Racing Oil for 6000 miles - iron wear was again 7 ppm and chrome wear was 0 ppm.

I don't think that heavier oils are necessary in these timing chain motors provided you use a very high quality lubricant....

TS

 

[jsharp]

quote:

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Originally posted by cousincletus:

quote:

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Originally posted by Cyprs:
Of interest, anyone considering changing their chain on a 720 series Datsun/Nissan, support that spring tensioner half way down the timing casing, if you dont, get your fishing rod ready to fish it out and put away a few ours taking everything apart to set it back in place after the fishing expedition stops. Little nasty lesson I learned first hand.

Cyprs

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The Haynes manual shows how to make the wedge. That engine is a real PITA to work on. I helped someone change a head gasket on a Datsun 720 p/u. It wasn't much fun.

---

You really think so? I had a 510 and a 720 pickup. I had to replace the head gasket in the 510 and thought it was a pretty simple engine. The 720 needed it to but that was after my ex #1 got it in the divorce so I didn't have to change that one...

 

[Cyprs]

Anthony, my dealership told me 320K kms or 210 kms on the QR25DE and the 01 Altima with the 2.4 litre at that time. It was posted on a large board at dealership too. I know I read this in a brochure too on one of my past Altimas or X-Trail currently. My wife's boss had a 94 Altima, they run it to 350K kms, was running great till the chain piled up valves. The Nissan dealer told them that Altima engine would have gone years longer had they changed that time chain at 320K kms, My wife's boss knew it was supposed to be done at time of 320K too but let it go, cost him a great reliable runabout car for their teenagers because of a routine scheduled time chain replacement for Nissan. They bought a new one, expensive time chain neglect.

On the 720 series Datsun when timing could not be achieved it was time to adjust or change chain, I would imagine same applies to new ones in general if there are timing problems earlier, thing is, one better do a timing check regularly before something happens after 210k miles.

I had the head gasket changed on 720 series couple years ago, I believe flat rate was 3 hours, a farm mechanic did it for me with no real problem, (I helped him) I did clutch at same time, that was tougher.

My 720 series 1980 is a bad year, Nissan/Datsun made two models that year, the 1980 & 1980 1/2, you have to establish which 1980 you have and read manuals carefully, this can cause problems in servicing if you are not aware of these two models in 1980. I dont know if Nissan did this in other years of 720 series.

Cyprs

 

[Cyprs]

I have the chiltons and Haynes manuals on this 720 series, we did make a big mistake in not reading ahead far enough about the wedge, as I said, it was a nasty lesson learned in taking it all apart. Cart was before the horse

. thanks,

Cyprs

 

[JohnBrowning]

427Z06, Please note that I did revise it to HTHS from viscosity wich is a relatively new measurement. I think that enough research exist's that is accessable throught the internet and book stores that just putting the idea out thier is often enough. If someone has the a link to some valuable information that is great!!! In the end I think that it the individuals responability to look for further information. This site is more about concepts and ideas then gospel! THe truth can false tomorrow when matters of science and engineering are involved.

When doing my apprenticeship with BMW I do not belive we ever asked for references to the information we were being taught! I know in college we did not either! I know that I could find their refferences in the back of their book but only went their when I really found something interesting. You assume that the person speaking is an expert on the subjest matter. I know that SME's in any branch of the service are also not questioned in this reguard either. I do not take it personely at all. I will say that unless I post a link assume I do not have it!

Do you have a link showing that HTHS,ZDDP and phosphurous do not have an impact on timeing chain and other valvetrain wear? I going to assume you do not or you would have posted it! Nothing personel but the table can always be turned! Sometimes reasonable men have to work with what is reasonable then worry about proveing it latter!

P.S. Just because something is printed on paper and might even be peer reviewed does not make valid!

 

[427Z06]

quote:

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Originally posted by JohnBrowning:


{Big snip on all the whiny stuff}

Do you have a link showing that HTHS,ZDDP and phosphurous do not have an impact on timeing chain and other valvetrain wear?

---

John, don't try this dishonest spin crap on me. Go back and read my post, I pointed out that viscosity alone isn't the sole culprit of possible accelerated timing chain wear.

And you have it bass ackwards on who has to prove what. The onus is on YOU to prove your statement that SAE 30 is a "timing chain killer". There's only about several tens of millions of engines running with dino 5w30 and timing chains that are living long uneventful lives.

Further, let me know what college you went to since they obviously have a poor science and philosophy department and I wouldn't want any of my family and friends to waste their money on a school that can't teach their students the very basics of science and logic.