Is there any point in having an oil filter at all?

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" Oil filters would never have been invented if that wasn't true."

Okay why do we have an appendix? Current belief is that it is a useless organ/appendage?

Perhaps oil filters have gone the same evolutionary route as the human appendix!
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
If GM wanted a “real world” test, they could have stationed an engine outside, on a test stand, using common intake air and experiencing normal environmental fluctuation. They would follow “normal” maintenance conditions, running an OCI for perhaps 100 hours (rough equivalent to 6k miles) at reasonably varied throttle settings, using a bulk supply of decent quality oil changed in the sump per a fair maintenance plan, all as constants. They would then run several “control” studies to find out what “normal” wear rates were. After they establish those controlled wear rates, only then could then alter filtration efficiency, and study the effects over many successive FCIs, holding the engine operation, oil supply and the OCI duration as constants. THAT would be reasonably close to real world conditions. They would NOT accelerate wear by overdosing the sump so that the test would be over in 8 hours; they would take weeks upon weeks to accumulate “normal” wear in both the control and variable portions of the study. But they didn’t.

Why not? Here’s why:
“Used oil analysis from engines in the field will not typically show such a clear correlation since wear metals generated between oil changes will be at much lower concentrations.”

That one sentence tells it all, guys. That one sentence is the acknowledgement that real world conditions cannot replicate the results, because:
1) There are other contributors to wear-control
2) Typical wear is so low that filtration selection is moot because normal operational wear variation is statistically larger than the ability of filtration efficiency to affect wear rates

GM solely wanted to manipulate filtration and eliminate other wear-control contributors so they could see ONLY the affect of filtration. That was their DOE.


Exactly ... this study was not about "wear control", except for one factor, that being particle size. Total wear control and all the other factors involved is a whole other subject, study and test process. That's what the reader here needs to understand.

The purpose/focus of this study was simply and only to define the "Correlation between particle size and engine wear". How they got there (accelerated test) is irrelevant as long as it's an accurate representation of that correlation, which IMO it was.

And their conclusions are targeted only with respect to the purpose of the test. As they summarized, the more effective an oil filter is, the less engine wear there will be. The more crud you can filter out, the smaller the wear rate will be and the longer the engine should last.

Does it matter in the long run if one filter is much less efficient than another given all the other important factors that contribute to engine wear (oil type, OCI, etc)? Maybe, maybe not ... it really depends on how those other factors also play out. But this study was not about any other factor except particle size vs wear rate.
 
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2648171&page=1

Here is a guy who has a bypass filter on his car and did a UOA after 40k miles. The UOA can be found at the link above.

1) Let's see the oil saving aspect. If he has a 4 liter sump, he needed 4 liters plus another 10 to top off, 14 liters in all. If he changed the oil every 5k miles, he would need 40 liters for OCIs plus 10 liters to top off, a total of 50 liters. I guess he saved some money, if we compared using boutique oil and going long OCIs versus the absolute cheapest dino and going short OCIs. Still, there's no 3k OCI to speak about.

2) Here's the astonishing part, the wear of this engine. He got 0.19 ppm FE per 1k miles, while the best I have seen when a bypass filter is not in use range at about 0.8 ppm FE per 1k miles.

All in all, he used little oil AND reduced wear substantially.
Since most miles during his OCI were done on the highway, there weren't many startups/mile, so, the role of the preluber would be small.

Of course, that's only one UOA but I think it speaks volumes about filtration.
 
Did he really reduce wear? Oil analysis will detect particles up to about 5 microns. Many bypass filters filter to 1 micron. He could have had the same wear or even more and the UOA would not show it. The evidence would be in the filter, not the oil that was sent for analysis.

On a side note, given that a car manufacturer will go out of the way to save a fraction of a cent on each car, why do they still have oil filters? They could save multiple dollars on filters and machining on each car. They could play the green/low maintenance cost card and increase sales. Yet we still have oil filters. There must be a good reason.

Ed
 
Originally Posted By: edhackett
Did he really reduce wear? Oil analysis will detect particles up to about 5 microns. Many bypass filters filter to 1 micron. He could have had the same wear or even more and the UOA would not show it. The evidence would be in the filter, not the oil that was sent for analysis.



It is said in here that a UOA will still detect wear, even with a bypass filter on.
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It is also said here that UOA is useless for detecting wear under any circumstances.

With most things in life, "it's more complicated than that".

Ed
 
I think an engine has its most wear when first started cold. I think manufacturers still use filters only to catch those minute particles caused during that time.
, as its been shown that very little wear occurs once oil pressure and flow are obtained.
 
I had answers from blackstone and they stated that oil analysis can still detect engine wear, even if bypass filtration is in use, since particles won't be filtered down that much.

I think the UOA of the S2000 is valid.
 
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Blackstone's answer is incomplete. The ICP they use will detect wear particles up to about 5 microns. The EaBP90 has an efficiency of 98.7 at 2 microns. The wear data from 2-5 microns has been effectively removed. The UOA in question only represents wear particles that are below 2 microns. If all the wear particles produced are below 2 microns, they will show up in the analysis, and you would be justified in drawing conclusions about wear.

Wear particles are often larger than can be detected by ICP. We've seen UOAs here from car and aircraft engines that were in the process of catastrophic cam failure. The UOAs done while this failure was taking place showed no indication of this wear. The particles generated were >5 micron. You need ferrography on the oil and material in the filter(s) before you draw any conclusions about wear.

The only thing you can say about the data in the UOA referenced is that the wear particles 2 microns may be less. Yes, wear particles will show up in UOA even with bypass filtration. Without the particle counts and sizing, or doing a composite digestion of the sample, you can't draw any conclusions as to total wear from the information obtained in a standard UOA.

Ed
 
The same thing can be said for a normal FF filter, no?

There's no use for just one UOA then, especially one that doesn't look into the filter(s). And no conclusions can be drawn from any UOA just by itself.
 
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Originally Posted By: edhackett
Blackstone's answer is incomplete. The ICP they use will detect wear particles up to about 5 microns. The EaBP90 has an efficiency of 98.7 at 2 microns. The wear data from 2-5 microns has been effecively removed. The UOA in question only represents wear particles that are below 2 microns. If all the wear particles produced are below 2 microns, they will show up in the analysis, and you would be justified in drawing conclusions about wear.

Wear particles are often larger than can be detected by ICP. We've seen UOAs here from car and aircraft engines that were in the process of catastrophic cam failure. The UOAs done while this failure was taking place showed no indication of this wear. The particles generated were >5 micron. You need ferrography on the oil and material in the filter(s) before you draw any conclusions about wear.

The only thing you can say about the data in the UOA referenced is that the wear particles 2 microns may be less. Yes, wear particles will show up in UOA even with bypass filtration. Without the particle counts and sizing, or doing a composite digestion of the sample, you can't draw any conclusions as to total wear from the information obtained in a standard UOA.

Ed



Good response Ed.
 
Short of a total engine teardown, and measuring every part in it, there's really no way to know how much is wearing off parts for sure. HOWEVER, if the oil filter is removing silicon/dirt & combustion byproducts from the oil-that alone is worth having an oil filter in the system.
 
years ago the speedway motorcycles ran new oil into the engine and dump it on the ground as they raced. course they only ran 4-6 laps at a time, and it was small engine not needing much oil, so it wasnt much oil. course they dont do that any more.
 
If you think you don't need a oil filter, take your oil pump apart. How did all those scrapes, scratches and dimples get in the gears and sides of the oil pump body???
Besides, everybody knows, engines get the most dirt in them from the intake air. The rest comes from combustion and blowby from the rings.
Yes, you do need a oil filter.
 
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