Is the synthetic 5W-20 grade already obsolete?

[CATERHAM]

Dino 5W-20's collectively are pretty good all being formulated from GPII, GPII+ and even some GPIII base oils.
They're largely shear stable and clean.

0W-20 synthetics can be made without VII's (Red Line and Asmoil to name two) so why even bother making an inherently inferior 5W-20 grade? Technically it doesn't make any sense.

The answer I believe is consumer perception and oil company marketing. 99.9% consumers believe the 0 in a 0W-XX oil means zero viscosity and are reluctant to buy it, consiquently 0W-XX oils don't sell very well despite being superior products..
A good example of that was the recent Red Line-Jay Leno video most of us have seen where RL's Cameron had to correct (educate) Jay on what 0W-XX actually meant (briefly).

The launch of Pennzoil's new Ultra brand is quite frankly disappointing. Only 3 grades are offered, IMO two of which are obsolete; yes 10w30 syn is an obsolete grade as well, without a 0W-XX in the offing.
The 5W-20 has a VI of only 158 which is actually lower than the current PP 5W-20's 160 and clearly inferior to PP's own 0W-20 VI of 175. The 5W-20 VI is not much better than pennzoil's conventional 5W-20 which is 150 (M1 clean 5000 is 156).

If you're in the market for a 20wt oil it's a waste of money to buy a 5W-20 syn when a 0W-20 is available, maybe not on the shelf but available nontheless.

 

[Slick17601]

Very clean and tight response. Wooooooooooooooooooooooo!

 

[bepperb]

Sure, I'd agree that both synthetic 10-30 and 5-20 seem obsolete. But, they'll stay on the market for years because of manufacturer recommendation and because there just isn't a big difference between them and the next W grade up.

I wouldn't say a 10-30 or 5-20 is a waste of money. For most situations, the outcome will be identical, so there's nothing lost.

 

[demarpaint]

Nice write up! I agree the PU launch was a disappointment, they should have offered 0W20 and 0W30 in their line up. Perhaps in their marketing figure out a way to start educating the public about the advantages of a 0W-xx oil. JMO

 

[tig1]

I disagree about being obsolete.

 

[Panzerman]

You may feel that you need a 0w20 because of cold temps. There seems to be this fascination with super light grade oil, to the point where it cant ever be too light and that most people think that is the temperature goes below 32 then a thicker weight oil will not even pump or flow. Almost all diesel engines use 15w40 and before that Detriots used straight 40 wt oil, they did have block heaters, but Cat engines especially were great for starting down to 0 with out "plugging them in" although they made some racket, they most certainly pumped oil. 10w30 is not obsolete and is still the "most" used and most popular oil weight, ask any quick lube or car dealership what is in the bulk tank Anything that uses 5w20, will function fine on 10w30, at any temp. 5w20 is a invention of Cafe standards, that is no secret. The durability of engines is why it is possible. Iam certain a engine that runs a million miles on 5w20 would have ran a million on 5w30 or 10w30 too. 0w20 chief objective is fuel milelage. I spent the first 30 years of my life in very harsh sub zero weather and I have never saw 10w30 oil or 15w40 oil freeze or not flow. I can not see a clear advantage of 0w20 over 10w30 in a application such as pulling trailers, extreme heat or cold and high performance engines where a large load is put on the crank and bearings.

 

[JAG]

I somewhat disagree. While 0W-20 apparently can be made without polymeric VIIs as you pointed out, that's done by using very good and expensive base oils. Synthetic 0W-20 using mostly or wholly Group III are going to need some help meeting the CCS and MRV specs while keeping volatility within limits. Cost then goes up. Short trippers, arctic conditions, hyrids...sure, 0W-20 may be worth it but for the majority of XW-20 users, the differences between similar quality and brand 0W-20 and 5W-20 oils will be insignificant.

 

[CATERHAM]

The lightest SM oil currently available at typical start-up temps (Toyota 0W-20) is still thicker than optimal until the oil temp hits at least 60C.

 

[prax]

I agree.

Other than cost and marketing, there is no point in having 5W-20 synthetics.

I wish 5 quart jugs for 0W-20 were available. 1 qt bottles are too expensive.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

The answer I believe is consumer perception and oil company marketing. 99.9% consumers believe the 0 in a 0W-XX oil means zero viscosity and are reluctant to buy it, consiquently 0W-XX oils don't sell very well despite being superior products..


True, I got M1 0W20 and 0W40 on one Walmart clearance shelf a couple years ago for $2/qt. Majority of drivers don't like 0Wxx and most owner manuals still recommending 5Wxx or 10Wxx for most climates.

 

[pbm]

For somebody with a Honda or Ford that specs 5w20 it probably is a waste of money to use synthetic 5w20 over dino or semi-syn (like Motorcraft) unless you are extending the OCI well beyond 5K. MC5000, Motorcraft, PYB, Valvoline dino etc... will serve the average guy well for 5K (or maybe even 6K) in most situations,IMO.

I don't believe 5W20,5W30 or 10W30 are obsolete. I do feel that 10w40 and 20w50 are nearly obsolete.

 

[CATERHAM]

JAG, thanks for responding.
I agree in principle with your line of thinking regarding formulating cost but I don't think it's that pronounced when it hits the market place.
The current pricing difference between a 5W-20 and 0W-20 is not that significant, it's more an issue of availability.
For example, PP 5W-20 and 0W-20 are about the same price when bought by the quart.
In Canada the cheapest synthetic 20wt bought by the litre is Toyota's 0W-20.

 

[Bumpside 427]

Well, the hot new girl in town is selling in 5w20 weight, so I'd have to say no.
I mean, why would the ever so awesome PZU be sold in 5w20 if it wasn't current and all the shizzle?

 

[JAG]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
JAG, thanks for responding.
I agree in principle with your line of thinking regarding formulating cost but I don't think it's that pronounced when it hits the market place.
The current pricing difference between a 5W-20 and 0W-20 is not that significant, it's more an issue of availability.
For example, PP 5W-20 and 0W-20 are about the same price when bought by the quart.
In Canada the cheapest synthetic 20wt bought by the litre is Toyota's 0W-20.

You're welcome. What I was getting at is that different oils in a given brand's synthetic lineup cost the manufacturer differing amounts but they are often sold for the same or nearly the same amount. If they get rid of their cheaper-to-make oils, they will make less profit margin and be tempted to raise the price. In contrast to that trend with the big companies' oils, it's interesting how Red Line's prices vary quite a bit depending on the viscosity grade. I won't buy their 0W-X oils because of the cost increase.

 

[Spector]

I have three vehicles where 10W30 is the specification of choice in the owners manual. Not new by any means but I do not plan or unloading them anytime soon.

 

[DieselTech]

HMMM What manufactures reccomend 0-20 or 0-30?? C'mon now give me a break. Honestly what does a 0 weight benefit me living in AZ........NOTHING

5-20 and deffinetly 5-30 are not obsolete. Actually 5-30 is the most widely purchased weight on the market today.

 

[tenderloin]

The reason most oil MADE AND SOLD is 5w-20, 5w30, 10w30 and 5W-40....is simple..That is what auto manufacturers SPEC!

I believe Mobil ran into customer resistance with their 0W-20 oil and now 0w30 because "0W" is not listed in the owners manual.

10W-40 is still around because a lot of "old timers" still prefer that weight oil over the new fangeled thin stuff

Scroll down after opening this link. Several "questions" about this

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_FAQs.aspx#FAQs10

 

[Bumpside 427]

Thanks!
Look, I'd prefer a 0w20 myself, even though I'm in SoCal.
But yes, confusion is there when the owner's manuals state X oil and X isn't available.
Seems to be overly complex for the average vehicle owner.
I mean, even smart OCD oilheads have zillionz of threads here, so what's my mom to do? My wife?

 

[Johnny]

It is very simple, when all of the major auto manufactures of cars sold in North America recommend 0W oils, they will be on the shelf. If all 30,000+ BITOG members used 0W oils, we would be a tiny drop in the old bucket.

And even though 5W-20 is catching on with most, and 5w30 is still recommended in many, believe it or not, 10w30 is still the number one selling viscosity oil sold in the PCMO market. Far from being obsolete.

 

[38sho]

I feel they made the rating numbers very confusing to people, 99% of the world outside BITOG thinks the first number is in relation to the second number..... they think its too thin....

I think another numbering scheme should be brought on. Another way would just be for a company to come out and make all their synthetics 0w rated.... Mobil 1 could do this easily with a 0w-20, ow-30, and the 0w40... which they currently make.....

on the other hand, choice is good, its just bad that the consumer is ill informed and doesn't make their choice wisely. Take mobil 1's lineup for instance, they make 0w-30, 5w30, 10w30, HM, EP?..... we could go on... each one is slightly different in what it is composed of.... maybe you like what is in one bottle over the other, and the grade and winter rating don't even play a part in your decision.... whatever makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside about the oil in your engine