"Is bigger better"?
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Just use the manufacturers OEM filter no need to waste oil. I change oil on over.200 cars a week and have dealt with this many times. The part about oil pressure drop was told to me by a ase certified mechanic right at the Toyota dealership. He went to school for it so I'll take his word.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: boosted
Car makers call for a certain filter for a reason, it has to do with oil pressure, every person here probably knows that more oil pressure equals a happier engine, by sticking a longer/ bigger filter on all you are doing is wasting money by having to use more oil and loosing much needed oil pressure at the same time ...
You don't lose oil pressure from using a bigger oil filter. In fact, a larger oil filter may reduce the flow restriction which in turn will make the positive displacement oil pump work a little less hard to pump the same volume down the oil circuit. If less restrictive, it will also give you more oil pressure when the oil pump is in pressure relief mode.
also less of a chance for the bypass valve to open up
Originally Posted By: boosted
Car makers call for a certain filter for a reason, it has to do with oil pressure, every person here probably knows that more oil pressure equals a happier engine, by sticking a longer/ bigger filter on all you are doing is wasting money by having to use more oil and loosing much needed oil pressure at the same time ...
You don't lose oil pressure from using a bigger oil filter. In fact, a larger oil filter may reduce the flow restriction which in turn will make the positive displacement oil pump work a little less hard to pump the same volume down the oil circuit. If less restrictive, it will also give you more oil pressure when the oil pump is in pressure relief mode.
also less of a chance for the bypass valve to open up
Take whoever's word you want the size of the filter will not affect pressure in a properly operating system. Nor will the bypass pressure be affected.
Many cars go into bypass any time they are revved anyway, and the filter is not the reason!
Many cars go into bypass any time they are revved anyway, and the filter is not the reason!
Originally Posted By: boosted
Car makers call for a certain filter for a reason, it has to do with oil pressure, every person here probably knows that more oil pressure equals a happier engine, by sticking a longer/ bigger filter on all you are doing is wasting money by having to use more oil and loosing much needed oil pressure at the same time, the difference may not be huge but like I said there is a reson the car makers call for a exact oil filter, in this case it't the T26 and the filter you are talking about is a T27 lol those are the TEXACO numbers that's how I know my filters by, also the t26 is a fram 3387a and the t27 is fram 4011, I can give lots of other examples also of filters that can be crossed on all kinds of cars but I don't want to bore you people with my mumbo jumbo.
Please explain, in detail and with links to sources, EXACTLY how replacing a small filter on my Jeep with a full-sized (FL1/PH87A/Puro 30001) filter will harm anything. Be specific.
Note: the ONLY reason they spec the smaller filter is packaging! The 30001 is a tight fit past the distributor. I recall the same engine in other Jeeps DID call for the larger filter.
Car makers call for a certain filter for a reason, it has to do with oil pressure, every person here probably knows that more oil pressure equals a happier engine, by sticking a longer/ bigger filter on all you are doing is wasting money by having to use more oil and loosing much needed oil pressure at the same time, the difference may not be huge but like I said there is a reson the car makers call for a exact oil filter, in this case it't the T26 and the filter you are talking about is a T27 lol those are the TEXACO numbers that's how I know my filters by, also the t26 is a fram 3387a and the t27 is fram 4011, I can give lots of other examples also of filters that can be crossed on all kinds of cars but I don't want to bore you people with my mumbo jumbo.
Please explain, in detail and with links to sources, EXACTLY how replacing a small filter on my Jeep with a full-sized (FL1/PH87A/Puro 30001) filter will harm anything. Be specific.
Note: the ONLY reason they spec the smaller filter is packaging! The 30001 is a tight fit past the distributor. I recall the same engine in other Jeeps DID call for the larger filter.
Originally Posted By: boosted
Just use the manufacturers OEM filter no need to waste oil. I change oil on over.200 cars a week and have dealt with this many times. The part about oil pressure drop was told to me by a ase certified mechanic right at the Toyota dealership. He went to school for it so I'll take his word.
I have heard stuff out of the mouths of "certified" technicians that have me struggle to keep from falling down laughing. For example, the NGK LISTED substitute for the dual electrode plug in the Gen 4 Toyota 4 cylinder "pulling too much" and being blamed for a problem which I had to fix MYSELF by changing a "lazy" air fuel sensor when the expensive plugs installed by the stealer didn't help at all. When I asked how "pulling too much" translated into a engineering term I could understand I got a blank stare. There was nothing wrong with the plugs they replaced, when I "read" them in the presence of the service "manager" after suggesting he check the NGK internet site where those plugs were listed as a DIRECT equivalent, he decided to reduce the bill a bit. The question of why this common air fuel sensor problem was unrecognized by a major dealer "certified" technician goes unanswered. None of my cars have been back there.
Just use the manufacturers OEM filter no need to waste oil. I change oil on over.200 cars a week and have dealt with this many times. The part about oil pressure drop was told to me by a ase certified mechanic right at the Toyota dealership. He went to school for it so I'll take his word.
I have heard stuff out of the mouths of "certified" technicians that have me struggle to keep from falling down laughing. For example, the NGK LISTED substitute for the dual electrode plug in the Gen 4 Toyota 4 cylinder "pulling too much" and being blamed for a problem which I had to fix MYSELF by changing a "lazy" air fuel sensor when the expensive plugs installed by the stealer didn't help at all. When I asked how "pulling too much" translated into a engineering term I could understand I got a blank stare. There was nothing wrong with the plugs they replaced, when I "read" them in the presence of the service "manager" after suggesting he check the NGK internet site where those plugs were listed as a DIRECT equivalent, he decided to reduce the bill a bit. The question of why this common air fuel sensor problem was unrecognized by a major dealer "certified" technician goes unanswered. None of my cars have been back there.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Provi
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: boosted
Car makers call for a certain filter for a reason, it has to do with oil pressure, every person here probably knows that more oil pressure equals a happier engine, by sticking a longer/ bigger filter on all you are doing is wasting money by having to use more oil and loosing much needed oil pressure at the same time ...
You don't lose oil pressure from using a bigger oil filter. In fact, a larger oil filter may reduce the flow restriction which in turn will make the positive displacement oil pump work a little less hard to pump the same volume down the oil circuit. If less restrictive, it will also give you more oil pressure when the oil pump is in pressure relief mode.
also less of a chance for the bypass valve to open up
Yep ... and also more debris holding capability. There are many advantages to using a larger sized oil filter IMO.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: boosted
Car makers call for a certain filter for a reason, it has to do with oil pressure, every person here probably knows that more oil pressure equals a happier engine, by sticking a longer/ bigger filter on all you are doing is wasting money by having to use more oil and loosing much needed oil pressure at the same time ...
You don't lose oil pressure from using a bigger oil filter. In fact, a larger oil filter may reduce the flow restriction which in turn will make the positive displacement oil pump work a little less hard to pump the same volume down the oil circuit. If less restrictive, it will also give you more oil pressure when the oil pump is in pressure relief mode.
also less of a chance for the bypass valve to open up
Yep ... and also more debris holding capability. There are many advantages to using a larger sized oil filter IMO.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Provi
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: boosted
Car makers call for a certain filter for a reason, it has to do with oil pressure, every person here probably knows that more oil pressure equals a happier engine, by sticking a longer/ bigger filter on all you are doing is wasting money by having to use more oil and loosing much needed oil pressure at the same time ...
You don't lose oil pressure from using a bigger oil filter. In fact, a larger oil filter may reduce the flow restriction which in turn will make the positive displacement oil pump work a little less hard to pump the same volume down the oil circuit. If less restrictive, it will also give you more oil pressure when the oil pump is in pressure relief mode.
also less of a chance for the bypass valve to open up
Yep ... and also more debris holding capability. There are many advantages to using a larger sized oil filter IMO.
And, aside from possible installation difficulties, no downsides I can think of.
Originally Posted By: Provi
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: boosted
Car makers call for a certain filter for a reason, it has to do with oil pressure, every person here probably knows that more oil pressure equals a happier engine, by sticking a longer/ bigger filter on all you are doing is wasting money by having to use more oil and loosing much needed oil pressure at the same time ...
You don't lose oil pressure from using a bigger oil filter. In fact, a larger oil filter may reduce the flow restriction which in turn will make the positive displacement oil pump work a little less hard to pump the same volume down the oil circuit. If less restrictive, it will also give you more oil pressure when the oil pump is in pressure relief mode.
also less of a chance for the bypass valve to open up
Yep ... and also more debris holding capability. There are many advantages to using a larger sized oil filter IMO.
And, aside from possible installation difficulties, no downsides I can think of.
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
And, aside from possible installation difficulties, no downsides I can think of.
There are a couple I can think of, but most aren't worth thinking of. Bypass setting might be different, but probably not by much. One optional filter might not have an ADBV or have a nitrile instead of silicone. That's not necessarily a deal killer, either.
The most important issue, next to actual installation difficulties, would be warranty, even on an out of warranty vehicle. If I put the specified Wix 51365 (or newer 51358) on my G and the filter failed, Wix would be on the hook. I use something they didn't specify for the application, such as the oversized 51356, I'm on the hook.
Obviously, though, I don't think that's a huge deal, considering I have a 51356 in my garage waiting to be used.
And, aside from possible installation difficulties, no downsides I can think of.
There are a couple I can think of, but most aren't worth thinking of. Bypass setting might be different, but probably not by much. One optional filter might not have an ADBV or have a nitrile instead of silicone. That's not necessarily a deal killer, either.
The most important issue, next to actual installation difficulties, would be warranty, even on an out of warranty vehicle. If I put the specified Wix 51365 (or newer 51358) on my G and the filter failed, Wix would be on the hook. I use something they didn't specify for the application, such as the oversized 51356, I'm on the hook.
Obviously, though, I don't think that's a huge deal, considering I have a 51356 in my garage waiting to be used.
Originally Posted By: boosted
Lots of false info in here, to the op you might want to search elsewhere. I wouldn't listen to the bigger is better theory. As bitog members you should be trying to reduce oil usage and help to save a dying resource..
And if I use a larger filter and extend my change interval to match?
Lots of false info in here, to the op you might want to search elsewhere. I wouldn't listen to the bigger is better theory. As bitog members you should be trying to reduce oil usage and help to save a dying resource..
And if I use a larger filter and extend my change interval to match?
While I'm sure it can do no harm no one here has presented any real evidence it does anything at all.
It's not bad, but it certainly hasn't been subject to typical BITOG withering scrutiny! Someone needs to prove it actually has a real quantifiable benefit.
Anyone?
It's not bad, but it certainly hasn't been subject to typical BITOG withering scrutiny! Someone needs to prove it actually has a real quantifiable benefit.
Anyone?
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
While I'm sure it can do no harm no one here has presented any real evidence it does anything at all.
It's not bad, but it certainly hasn't been subject to typical BITOG withering scrutiny! Someone needs to prove it actually has a real quantifiable benefit.
Anyone?
If someone thinks it does do something beneficial, then I guess that's enough reason for said person to use a bigger filter.
I can see in certain instances where a larger filter could have actual benefits ... especially if the filter is used for long OCIs. Benefits being: better flow, less PSID, more debris holding capacity, less load-up over the OCI and therefor less chance of bypass valve operation. Using a larger filter just gives more "headroom" (ie, safety margin) on these parameters. Most people like safety margin is they can get it.
While I'm sure it can do no harm no one here has presented any real evidence it does anything at all.
It's not bad, but it certainly hasn't been subject to typical BITOG withering scrutiny! Someone needs to prove it actually has a real quantifiable benefit.
Anyone?
If someone thinks it does do something beneficial, then I guess that's enough reason for said person to use a bigger filter.
I can see in certain instances where a larger filter could have actual benefits ... especially if the filter is used for long OCIs. Benefits being: better flow, less PSID, more debris holding capacity, less load-up over the OCI and therefor less chance of bypass valve operation. Using a larger filter just gives more "headroom" (ie, safety margin) on these parameters. Most people like safety margin is they can get it.
I can do little to counter your ideas, they sound logical to me as well.
But that's not proof, just conjecture. I am running stock v8's in very heavy service duty to over 400k miles with the tiniest filter I have EVER installed! I'm not sure you can wear one out yet if it is cared for carefully!
Perhaps we can agree that there may be certain models with some type of shortcoming in their oiling setup that somehow benefits from the larger filter.
But that's not proof, just conjecture. I am running stock v8's in very heavy service duty to over 400k miles with the tiniest filter I have EVER installed! I'm not sure you can wear one out yet if it is cared for carefully!
Perhaps we can agree that there may be certain models with some type of shortcoming in their oiling setup that somehow benefits from the larger filter.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I can do little to counter your ideas, they sound logical to me as well.
But that's not proof, just conjecture. I am running stock v8's in very heavy service duty to over 400k miles with the tiniest filter I have EVER installed! I'm not sure you can wear one out yet if it is cared for carefully!
Perhaps we can agree that there may be certain models with some type of shortcoming in their oiling setup that somehow benefits from the larger filter.
I agree ... I think it would be hard to prove without some planned testing that a larger filter gives benefits, but logic says there "could be" benefits if the usage conditions made favor of a larger oil filter. Also agree that if people service their vehicles on a regular basis and use quality products that the filter size probably doesn't make any difference.
For me, I figure I can use a larger filter for the same price as the smaller one, and therefore give myself some added headroom on all the parameters we've discussed above.
I can do little to counter your ideas, they sound logical to me as well.
But that's not proof, just conjecture. I am running stock v8's in very heavy service duty to over 400k miles with the tiniest filter I have EVER installed! I'm not sure you can wear one out yet if it is cared for carefully!
Perhaps we can agree that there may be certain models with some type of shortcoming in their oiling setup that somehow benefits from the larger filter.
I agree ... I think it would be hard to prove without some planned testing that a larger filter gives benefits, but logic says there "could be" benefits if the usage conditions made favor of a larger oil filter. Also agree that if people service their vehicles on a regular basis and use quality products that the filter size probably doesn't make any difference.
For me, I figure I can use a larger filter for the same price as the smaller one, and therefore give myself some added headroom on all the parameters we've discussed above.
Originally Posted By: boosted
Lots of false info in here, to the op you might want to search elsewhere. I wouldn't listen to the bigger is better theory. As bitog members you should be trying to reduce oil usage and help to save a dying resource..
What are your OCI's again?
Lots of false info in here, to the op you might want to search elsewhere. I wouldn't listen to the bigger is better theory. As bitog members you should be trying to reduce oil usage and help to save a dying resource..
What are your OCI's again?
My question is how much filtering a modern filter does anyways? How often is the engine in bypass? Also in the grand scheme of things does a extra inch on a oil filter could really provide that much more benefit? Using the specified filter does no harm. Using a larger filter that fits would not do harm either and doubt any "benefits" would be great.
Originally Posted By: dave1251
My question is how much filtering a modern filter does anyways?
A good filter catches quite a bit of crud. Have you ever opened up a filter and cut the media out for a close inspection of the crud it has caught? On a few of my vehicles, I still see small particles of aluminum and carbon caught by the filter.
Originally Posted By: dave1251
How often is the engine in bypass?
IMO, filters don't go into bypass as often as you think. If a filter is changed often and not allowed to load up with lots of crud, then the possibility of it opening stays low. Cold start-up with high RPM before the oil can warm up some is the most likely time for the bypass valve to open.
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Also in the grand scheme of things does a extra inch on a oil filter could really provide that much more benefit? Using the specified filter does no harm. Using a larger filter that fits would not do harm either and doubt any "benefits" would be great.
As said before ... hard to say without some real test data. But fact is there is certainly potential to add safety margin in many aspects of what a filter does by using a larger filter.
One could argue the other direction and say ... "hey, I bet I can use a smaller and smaller filter and not take away any performance of the filter." But how many of us are looking for a smaller filter than what's specified. The filter makers have been reducing some of the filter sizes ... so hopefully they are doing so based on real performance data and not just to save materials and cut costs while hurting real performance.
My question is how much filtering a modern filter does anyways?
A good filter catches quite a bit of crud. Have you ever opened up a filter and cut the media out for a close inspection of the crud it has caught? On a few of my vehicles, I still see small particles of aluminum and carbon caught by the filter.
Originally Posted By: dave1251
How often is the engine in bypass?
IMO, filters don't go into bypass as often as you think. If a filter is changed often and not allowed to load up with lots of crud, then the possibility of it opening stays low. Cold start-up with high RPM before the oil can warm up some is the most likely time for the bypass valve to open.
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Also in the grand scheme of things does a extra inch on a oil filter could really provide that much more benefit? Using the specified filter does no harm. Using a larger filter that fits would not do harm either and doubt any "benefits" would be great.
As said before ... hard to say without some real test data. But fact is there is certainly potential to add safety margin in many aspects of what a filter does by using a larger filter.
One could argue the other direction and say ... "hey, I bet I can use a smaller and smaller filter and not take away any performance of the filter." But how many of us are looking for a smaller filter than what's specified. The filter makers have been reducing some of the filter sizes ... so hopefully they are doing so based on real performance data and not just to save materials and cut costs while hurting real performance.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
It should be obvious that there will be isolated instances exactly as described. It's good to know that mfgrs are aware of their issues and trying to solve them.
But there is still no measurable benefit to any ordinary car to enlarge the filter.
It would be nice if the manufacturer would do a little bit more R&D before they sell their product to the public so the consumer wouldn't have any issues with some possible major repair cost.
ROD
It should be obvious that there will be isolated instances exactly as described. It's good to know that mfgrs are aware of their issues and trying to solve them.
But there is still no measurable benefit to any ordinary car to enlarge the filter.
It would be nice if the manufacturer would do a little bit more R&D before they sell their product to the public so the consumer wouldn't have any issues with some possible major repair cost.
ROD
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