IRMA and price gouging

[ArcticDriver]

Originally Posted By: AirgunSavant
Sorry I'm an American first and a capitalist a distant second.
No excuse for screwing the needy!


People stay at hotels for all types of personal reasons and not everyone staying at hotels were there as a result of a hurricane.
Should the government have the job of telling private enterprise what rates they can set for each personal circumstance?

I do appreciate what you are saying but the price was not out of line with the historic weekday rate so was it actually gouging?

Now if a hotel were to charge more than their typical price for rooms when they are near full capacity that might be gouging.

I guess the subject here is really an unclear definition of gouging.

 

[aquariuscsm]

I just heard on the radio that two gas stations and one hotel in Tx got busted for price gouging. I hope the owners get strung up!

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
Originally Posted By: AirgunSavant
Sorry I'm an American first and a capitalist a distant second.
No excuse for screwing the needy!


People stay at hotels for all types of personal reasons and not everyone staying at hotels were there as a result of a hurricane.
Should the government have the job of telling private enterprise what rates they can set for each personal circumstance?

I do appreciate what you are saying but the price was not out of line with the historic weekday rate so was it actually gouging?

Now if a hotel were to charge more than their typical price for rooms when they are near full capacity that might be gouging.

I guess the subject here is really an unclear definition of gouging.

It helps when there is a set standard. In one way it's pretty obvious when a convenience store that sold a case of 24 bottles of water for $6 the whole month earlier is now selling it for $25 when hurricane evacuees are passing through. In the case of hotels, the management needs to be aware that the law doesn't allow for them to jack up the rates, and I've heard of hotels/motels that made sure to set their pricing to their lowest rates for the goodwill that it might bring. That Alabama law is extremely specific.

The laws make it a general price control when a state of emergency is declared. The law makes no distinction between someone staying in a room on vacation or evacuating a natural disaster. A lot of otherwise normal activity is suspended in after an emergency declaration. Adults aren't normally subject to curfews, and the prices are limited as matter of law.

 

[bbhero]

Here's a novel question... What were the rates at Super 8, Motel 6, Clarion, Holiday Inn Express, Holiday, Red Roof Inn, Best Western, Comfort Inn, The Hayat, Raddison, The Sheraton Inn ??? Did their rates go up as well.... I bet ahh bet they did too by the same margin of increase. Also what were their "normal" rates?? Heck if a Marriott was going for $89 on a regular night I would bet a Super 8 was $29 a night and a Holiday Inn was going for $49-59 a night. Good, bad or indifferent people who normally stay at a Marriott are used to paying well over $100. I've paid almost $200 and $180 for them in times of nothing special happening. So say, Bobby Jo and his wife are coming from Florida and typically stay at a Marriot. They would not be surprised or shocked to have a cost of $189. It is far from unusual. In fact it is the norm.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: bbhero
Here's a novel question... What were the rates at Super 8, Motel 6, Clarion, Holiday Inn Express, Holiday, Red Roof Inn, Best Western, Comfort Inn, The Hayat, Raddison, The Sheraton Inn ??? Did their rates go up as well.... I bet ahh bet they did too by the same margin of increase. Also what were their "normal" rates?? Heck if a Marriott was going for $89 on a regular night I would bet a Super 8 was $29 a night and a Holiday Inn was going for $49-59 a night. Good, bad or indifferent people who normally stay at a Marriott are used to paying well over $100. I've paid almost $200 and $180 for them in times of nothing special happening. So say, Bobby Jo and his wife are coming from Florida and typically stay at a Marriot. They would not be surprised or shocked to have a cost of $189. It is far from unusual. In fact it is the norm.

Like I said, once the state of emergency was declared, there are price controls and they have to absolutely turn off their normal pricing algorithms. The major airlines were doing that, although not without some glitches.

With the Best Western franchise that lost its license, Best Western specifically noted that they were informing all their franchisees in the affected areas that they can't raise prices and that they needed to engage in "compassionate pricing" given the circumstances.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Well, I sure feel like a sucker.

I gave away water, food, indoor boat storage, vehicle storage, shelter, generators, loaned generators, fixed generators, secured boats in water, gave away plywood, installed plywood, installed shutters for physically unable neighbors, didnt collect and effing dime, and was nearly killed by police for my efforts after being mistaken for a looter.

As 480,000 households in Broward County are without power, I am still continuing my efforts.

Going to abdicate my ownership of my business tomorrow. I clearly lack business acumen and am a terrible capitalist.

The human race has made it as far as it has, completely lacking any combat ability or other redeeming natural ability for one simple reason: Our ability to work together, and empathy for one another.

I love capitalism, but taking advantage of people running for their lives is some bull I'm never going to take a part in.

 

[bbhero]

That's a joke.... Seriously. Compassionate pricing. Garbage. I'm sorry but for people who routinely go to a Marriott to stay are not surprised by it being around $189... I'm sorry but this is just not an unreasonable price increase. If it was $250, $300 $350 etc I would be on board with that idea of that being confiscatory of customers. This is what happens to an overwhelming majority of people going for other reasons of needing somewhere to stay. The "emotional" reasoning behind something should not matter. Yet this is being drawn into this and that's where it's at. There's a balance between an understandable increase and one that is truly ridiculous. I'm sorry but for a Marriott $189 is not unreasonable. I don't CARE what the cause is for it either. $189 was a reasonable increase given the circumstances. And a state government getting involved is ok up to a point. I'm all right with a state doing so. IF and I mean if the state is reasonable. A Super 8 room that goes for $29 going up to $60 a might is not a big deal either. Whether it be for a influx of people from an area affected by a storm, people gathering for a college graduation weekend or a college football game. That increase is reasonable. If that Super 8 went from $29 a light to say $120 or more then I would agree. That's where something needs to be done to address it.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Claud
A very different culture to Europe, After the recent terrorist attacks taxi drivers, food outlets and hotels were offering their products and services for free to the victims and rescue services.

Better lobby your senators and congressmen to make sure no Federal aid is provided.

Claud.


You should see the piles of supplies people from all over are giving freely. Millions, perhaps billions of dollars worth of stuff before all is said and done.

Nothing wrong with selling at retail. I don't consider $189 gouging a retail, especially given the added strain and costs associated with beyond full occupancy.

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: bbhero
The "cause" whether it wanting to go to a big game or a storm comes.... does not matter at all Nick... Doesn't matter. Period. End of story. Whether people are doing it for fun or necessity... It doesn't matter. Again... If prices were $275, $300, $400 vs $80.... I would agree and buy in. I would call that excessive and truly taking FAR too much advantage of people. At $189 vs regular price of $89... That's not worthy of being all upset about it. That price of $189 when there's a very large scale increase of customers makes sense to me. It is not excessive.


Right. So on 9/11/2001, people should have been charged a much higher toll cross the bridges out of Manhattan?

 

[bbhero]

Does the state own those bridges or tunnels??? Bet they would keep them up... No matter what. If privately owned the are likely in a contract situation where the rate is static no matter what happens. Whether anyone likes it or not.... Business is business... If YOU OR ME finds something wrong than guess what... We aka you and me can use our BRAIN power and store what a company did do in a bad time or however which way you want to describe it and store this memory in our brain. Then 2nd step... You and me VOTE with our money NOT to go that business ever again or go there for again for a very LONG time. Guys... It's not that hard.

I have done this myself. 2 cases where I DID this exact same thing. Case #1. I was not pleased with Exxon Mobil's handling of the Valdez spill circumstance. I made sure not to purchase Exxon gas except in extreme circumstance where I was about to literally run totally out of gas. I only bought gas from Exxon 2 times in 23 yrs of driving. So, I bought gas elsewhere 99.9% of the time. It was not until 2015 I lifted my ban on Exxon Mobil gas. You see, I made a conscious decision when I was 14 yrs old before I even started driving that I was not going to give them chickenheads my money. And I kept to an OVERWHELMING majority of the time.
Case #2. A gas station near me had raised the price of their gas 60 cents higher than anyone else around them after Hurricane Katrina. Here's the kicker... That dumb station had a contract with the local refinery so it wasn't like they were having a real supply issue. So, I made a decision consiously that I would not buy anything from that store. And I made sure to remember it. I didn't buy anything from that place for 5 years.

So, if you all don't like what Marriott did.... Remember it. Don't spend your money there. Vote with your money. That's what you do. That's what I do. I respect anyone who doesn't agree with or like what a business does and that person refused to spend their money with that business or corporation. I say go for it. I support your decision in doing that. I may not feel the same way. Which I don't here. I will still stay at a Marriott from time to time. I just don't feel like going from $89 to $189 is a big enough increase to be all in a tizzy over. Like I have clearly stated several times already... If the rate was up to $250, $300, $350,$400 them I would be on the other side of this. I then would not stay in a Marriott. That is just too confiscatory of an action by a business in my opinion. However, I respect anyone who feels like $189 was too much and they decide that they will not spend their money at a Marriott. I will gladly support anyone in their decision to do that.

 

[SeaJay]

Free market capitalism, with all of its warts is still a far better system than a heavily regulated system with price controls and all sorts of other socialistic considerations.

The Sherman anti-trust statute, constitutional protections and other such federal measures have served this country well for a long time.

 

[Andrew1972]

Plenty of opportunities to capitalize off the hurricane once initial shock over. A large portion of folks need in demand services like construction, clean ups, replacement vehicles, temporary housing(rentals) and retail/construction items.

I think business would see the $$$$ in coming future and act appropriately in FL now. Give freebies now so you charge the premium latter.

Act appropriate is helping folks for free in whatever expertise they offer to get folks over a hump to a semblance of normalcy.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Claud
A very different culture to Europe, After the recent terrorist attacks taxi drivers, food outlets and hotels were offering their products and services for free to the victims and rescue services.

Better lobby your senators and congressmen to make sure no Federal aid is provided.

Claud.


You should see the piles of supplies people from all over are giving freely. Millions, perhaps billions of dollars worth of stuff before all is said and done.

Nothing wrong with selling at retail. I don't consider $189 gouging a retail, especially given the added strain and costs associated with beyond full occupancy.


I get that it's not out of line for such a hotel room. However, it's a state of emergency and legally "unconscionable pricing" laws set price controls.

At least in the US, there are only fines. Apparently in the Bahamas there's the possibility of criminal charges for price gouging. A
nd yes this is a huge webpage link. Well - the link doesn't work because the two-letter country code for the Bahamas is filtered.

Quote:
http://www.bahamas.gov.[censored]/wps/portal/public/gov/government/notices/price%20gouging%20is%20a%20criminal%20offence/!ut/p/b1/vZZrj6LMEsc_y34A126gubxEQK7NHRTeGEBEQVBHuX76w0yeTc7MsztzTrIjJCRQ1fxS_66qrmW83C7jJulORfI4XZrk_Poe0zsSyJjnKRazBqCBGiCaNW2JAASaHaLZAfzh4sGH9bTGARXqlm5wOilDarlZbpWoH6S7Wki8sHMqW-P56qZvoQzKsrJsIUPybDjv5KTJUxh3eaF0j5SBeoZSUNzVfRs8xGI4lHeFz4rq3vRCbHZOvDYeHG74AEqOm-1XuuIgL6h4BdZm4uCNXk42K5ya237HW9sxMpKdY-hkDP3FoK2IrTfloHSnQYS0v7MVBqsbRf3xT7yfBPQWr2xhR3gzU69m31RFySZln_xiPY3-z_UyetsQ2-BtRiEs6oPe783s-td-fQL439b_2eGLfNks409T4lWBN4fPUuqrpIo_i8LSiS8cZhVN5VLny2h2Y_4MQkt_uQXUzivHqzpVk1uCnnhMzuCJmgGm0PYCxjeDesBmaOKXWJ2_qX4F5PFaJ5qeV7SV0frpIvAadlc5--Mj0CL8V6AAaT1AwFPp7wZ-iFChng2EzwaSTwZy4NnAZycNh54NZP46UFvGp7T-2Wf1T_CTogFNAo5iIIQ0Q6FlqGUnRqxCZy1t3RTKd3im4bkqgksTQKqRhUFpJDJrjkzfhIrWeGPNhaJbqcOx9NPUvyIBUsSD5PqtSMlxrygHR19dRzZYmEF7zBuv6Db-vmnIPievVDaV1K3m6_BQtY4cqfwD9T--EEWx_70Lk2vcfaH3RHV6E6WaRUklgB8C9KUrhhXEHugBrq6mL_WTZxr2PnSDFS_4wS00v2hODvXdwA8RoqcD4bdLqhPkDDRIw2QFCEji2cC_H-G7SqI5jqQBmjkcDVhILMMyogbxrvaitOnAPSgHEadWn122sZi2NZSkKte8hUIc1duoxuXivoNnO7RSlnYSkRL4kTHuad6RzbbkWzI78mxU2ZuV7XU3VTSPWsCjW33ctkl95Q3WPndODrTQLpwXGPXrdRsf_Bf9IPUlOyFn2Ky7m8FmhtXhzgoDGt1ly23U7dnTWYWNGa6vF7Z0y4-KF9xaZPY0AUIdGeZVbWuQ7wDk8pS6bFjd7tv0wrT7suKq-EVkPgov-yGYhQe860EHsO5veuZg4WltzOIOsAwtv0zDWWHiYXrwIfUQiMHwYJzeqwaNd5oXNF1ueqHymnRqmOLHV6OETHw3UEYWO89UjG_ziABAeDoQfhfw1-xs-atXSUlF4WmDZAH1bCD914HvqpXgAGIhS9IEA9h5dH8tVkYs1EGUvK46RWdLDPa2k6nEuOrg_SGP1ULjWPuBnaNU9J4ZT31SuiiypB1GiWCabUszDThwI1LSNIqCh1VDcbjgkS_J_nqlSO3kFdMeED0Or200sPcXyCYGrPwT5n14MuVBtOSw6nDFXC_bJHCvN0rSwwZFo7-wxxvWazWpkV4QkApb8YDEbXLu4kS9vQjhdjjxNMdKjJwdoovQqYClGxyZHKYUbip8Yg3NyL9nzOHC5vB3Gfa-aJnftGdvxNICmqI2d0ZivEvTZtZ_wvu1eZ81n_cE4ynEs_5zV11Z_kP5p1uuVj1CXx2xMvxu4IcaUpknA3nqu4C_ryEKMU8GGn8_wndFO4-qLMkRJMdSNJof6NcZiwuJ93ZOhWMHgfbgMkWrNpZsjT7FM_NfTzuRMUZ-nU1ErZHT5pjX4LRI6McjIUjecgirYmLldPbgFAXb1M2cSt4RRHmpWc-trTZwMHFLLWPatXNtb7IjWQxFeE_EKQaLZtOcD1WYrMNoPa5c7Lk4OOaKkW_tztutpwlV913FzBMyRlzZFuNaKkN_da7aUVqbrRXCwxHZDdPcIBMvr3XQ6fNl0K7ksubhXzd6-a-7-7NprvH_AOERyO4!/dl4/d5/L2dBISEvZ0FBIS9nQSEh/

As the Country today faces the threat of another major Hurricane, named “Irma”, the Office of Prime Minister wishes to advise the General Public and all Retailers and Wholesalers of essential items, particularly breadbasket food items, medical and prescription drug supplies as well as hurricane preparedness items, such as plywood and nails, that “price gouging” and specifically the “hoarding” of items for “speculation” or “profiteering” as well as the marking-up of prices by Retailers and Wholesalers in the advent of a potential natural disaster are Criminal Offences under the terms of the Price Control Act and the Regulations made under that Act. [See: Price Control Regulations 5 and 6 (4) (d)].

The Prime Minister, Dr. the Honourable Hubert A. Minnis, has instructed the Prices Commission to commence a programme of strict supervision, review and monitoring of the prices being charged for the mentioned essential items, starting immediately, and has urged the Commission to report any suspected violations to the Office of the Attorney General which has, in consultation with the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Royal Bahamas Police Force, committed to aggressively investigate any information which might indicate any of the elements of what is termed “price gouging”, and to act accordingly, should such evidence be found.

 

[PandaBear]

$89 -> $189 seems to tick off a lot of people, but to me it is acceptable. It really depends on where you draw the line and how ridiculous it is.

Would $89 -> $90 be ok? What if the manager has to pay double to get maids and clerk to come to work during the storm? Who pays for the extra?

Now if you go from $89 to $1299, that's pretty obvious it is gouging.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
$89 -> $189 seems to tick off a lot of people, but to me it is acceptable. It really depends on where you draw the line and how ridiculous it is.

Would $89 -> $90 be ok? What if the manager has to pay double to get maids and clerk to come to work during the storm? Who pays for the extra?

Now if you go from $89 to $1299, that's pretty obvious it is gouging.

Under the standards set by the Alabama legislature, $89 to $189 would be subject to fines if it can be shown that the average price leading up to the declaration of emergency was (let's say) $110. It's not necessarily about what's subjectively acceptable, but that there's a price control formula that kicks in when there's a state of emergency.

 

[AVB]

I doubt that they will be found to be gouging officially. It seems that $89 was advertised as a special rate, Mobile is a coastal city and is probably winding down their peak season. Meaning that their average price the previous 30 days was probably higher. I agree with you y_p_w, if it is found that $110 is the base price used to calculate what is allowable, but I think it is going to be closer to the $189.