Introduction:

[Robert Herndon]

Benjamming: We had a local sponsor provide us with unlimited RedLine products and I found a few things that worked well in our vehicles.

I like the MT-90 Lubricant for Manual Transmissions because it does not have a friction modifier and it is not harmful to brass.

I like the 75/140NS Gear Lubricant because it is a 'climbing' formula (which also makes it suitable in Amboid Final Drives) and it does not have the friction modifier for positraction (clutch-type) differentials.

I prefer a non-additive lubricant for competition and 'hot' street cars with a clucth-type posi differential.

I was impressed with some of the Schaeffer Gear Lube testing I saw on this site. Might be nice to test some of their lubricants.

Great site!!!...Robert

 

[Big O Dave]

Welcome, Robert!

I was wondering how you ended up with a 440 Pontiac... did you start with a 421, 428 or a 400? Please do tell!

 

[Robert Herndon]

I started with a 1970 400 4-Bolt Main Block. I had it sonic tested and bored it .060" oversize.

I took a 1962 Forged 421 Crankshaft, machined the mains down from 3.250" to 3.00" and used a custom made, teflon coated skirt piston...Robert

 

[chuckstop]

Robert,
Since you know Tim Beebe please ask him if there is any truth to the story that the old time fuelers ran dishwashing detergent and water rather than oil. I have heard this story from time to time but it may be another urban myth.

 

[427Z06]

Robert

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Herndon:
On our brand new 2005 Ford Crown Victoria's, they don't specify anything less than a 15w40 for our climate and SAE 30 or 20/50 is preferred.

---

You have a brand new 2005 Ford Crown Victoria that specifies something other than SM/GL-4 5w20 in the owner's manual?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Herndon:
Racing engines typically are machined with 'loose' tolerances, so a thicker film is required...Robert

---

Your old pushrod pig-iron V8 was originally designed with larger oil clearances by today's standards. Building them on the "loose side" further differentiates them from modern engine designs. Thus it doesn't surprise me that you find SAE 40-50 preferable in high output/racing applications, especially if oil temperatures are on the high side due to high horsepower levels.

An example:

code:

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Chevy Stock 350 CID

Main bearings:

Clearance #1, .0008" - .002"

2,3,4 .0011" - .0023"

#5 .0017" - .0032"

Connecting rod bearings:

Clearance .0013" - .0035"

---

code:

---

2002 Honda V6

Main bearings:

Clearance .0008-.0017

Connecting rod bearings:

Clearance .0008-.0017

---

Further, the pushrod flat-tappet camshaft designs of yester year deplete ZDDP levels at a significantly higher rate than a modern fully rollerized valvetrain design. So your fondness of oils with high "zinc" levels is understandable. Many SBC/BBC fans like to run modern HDEOs boosted with some GM EOS for this reason.

Also, there was site sponsor that produced excellent products for similar applications. I think they're still around?

One other point. Teutonic engineered engines are notorious for their need for higher viscosity engine oils. Even their little 1.8L 4-bangers.

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Herndon:
I have considered synthetic engine oils, but I feel that even though they last longer from a chemical standpoint, they are still subject to contamination, which is only compounded in a carbureted vehicle.

---

Have you ever considered doing an UOA to see what the actual contamination levels are?

[ August 24, 2005, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: 427Z06 ]

 

[Rhymingmechanic]

Robert,

Welcome.

I recognize you from the Performance Years Pontiac forum, though I haven't been there for awhile. Your experience should be helpful to those with race engines and old Detroit iron.

 

[nickmckinney]

quote:

---

Originally posted by 427Z06:
Thus it doesn't surprise me that you find SAE 40-50 preferable in high output/racing applications, especially if oil temperatures are on the high side due to high horsepower levels.

---

Actually the opposite is true for drag racing motors, most are run with cold oil unless they have an extra heater on the oil pan or oil tank. You never can keep the engine running long enough to properly heat the oil at the track.

Now roadracing gets oil to temp (and then some)

 

[427Z06]

True, I was addressing the circle track application. Drag racing can be further broken down into sub categories too. Top Fuel, Pro Stock, Stock from the old days. A quick run down through bearing design equations with load levels, dimensions, temperatures and viscosities illustrate nicely the different requirements for each. Oil distribution becomes a factor too. Many people have misidentified a problem due to viscosity when it is actually a distribution problem. Not to mention fuel dilution in some applications.

 

[vicmackey]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Herndon:
On our brand new 2005 Ford Crown Victoria's, they don't specify anything less than a 15w40 for our climate and SAE 30 or 20/50 is preferred.

---

It sure would be cool if you could scan and post this page from the owner's manual because these motors are a OHC design and it is common knowledge in the crown vic community not to use the thicker oils on the 4.6 modular engine.

Thanks in advance.

 

[benjamming]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Herndon:
Benjamming: We had a local sponsor provide us with unlimited RedLine products and I found a few things that worked well in our vehicles.

I like the MT-90 Lubricant for Manual Transmissions because it does not have a friction modifier and it is not harmful to brass.

I like the 75/140NS Gear Lubricant because it is a 'climbing' formula (which also makes it suitable in Amboid Final Drives) and it does not have the friction modifier for positraction (clutch-type) differentials.

I prefer a non-additive lubricant for competition and 'hot' street cars with a clucth-type posi differential.

I was impressed with some of the Schaeffer Gear Lube testing I saw on this site. Might be nice to test some of their lubricants.

Great site!!!...Robert

---

I was wondering more about their motor oils.

 

[Robert Herndon]

Benjamming: We never used their engine oils because we felt the sliding action of the camshaft and lifter required the higher levels of zinc found in Valvoline Racing Formula (.20) and Kendall GT-1 (.16) respectively...

427Z06: I use .0020" to .0022" oil clearance on these engines. Oil Pressure at hot idle (900 rpm) is about 35psi and oil pressure hot at 3000 rpm is around 60psi.

The large (3.00") journal diameters necessitate a lot of oil pressure and volume...

vicmackey: We have a temperature range chart affixed to out Police/Fleet Supplement Manuals...Robert

 

[vicmackey]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Herndon:
vicmackey: We have a temperature range chart affixed to out Police/Fleet Supplement Manuals...Robert

---

Cool.

Can we see it?

 

[Robert Herndon]

Vicmackey: I will see if I can get it scanned for you.

We first learned about the lower end and camshaft failures in the 4.6 from CHP. They stopped using 5w30 as a result and went to a 10/40 which seemed to help things dramatically.

In 2000, I was issued a brand new 2000 Crown Vic. I received it with 11 miles on the odometer.

It had 5w30 in it from the factory and I changed it to Valvoline 20/50 at 1000 miles. I had the oil and filter changed every 3000 miles after that.

All the other cars are getting 10/30 every 5000 miles.

The car now has 125,000 miles on it and it is the ONLY one of our Crown Vics that still has the original engine.

The biggest problems with the 4.6 was lower end failures, low oil pressure and camshaft lobe failures.

Mine is still going and has been turned over to the patrol division. I am now driving a brand new 2005 Police Interceptor...Robert

 

[MGBV8]

Robert

Not sure about dishwashing detergent but apparantly custard is all the rage (halfway down under Racing - current)
http://www.robinson-race-cars.co.uk/

 

[farrarfan1]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Herndon:
Vicmackey: I will see if I can get it scanned for you.

We first learned about the lower end and camshaft failures in the 4.6 from CHP. They stopped using 5w30 as a result and went to a 10/40 which seemed to help things dramatically.

In 2000, I was issued a brand new 2000 Crown Vic. I received it with 11 miles on the odometer.

It had 5w30 in it from the factory and I changed it to Valvoline 20/50 at 1000 miles. I had the oil and filter changed every 3000 miles after that.

All the other cars are getting 10/30 every 5000 miles.

The car now has 125,000 miles on it and it is the ONLY one of our Crown Vics that still has the original engine.

The biggest problems with the 4.6 was lower end failures, low oil pressure and camshaft lobe failures.

Mine is still going and has been turned over to the patrol division. I am now driving a brand new 2005 Police Interceptor...Robert

---

Interesting.My department(Indiana State Police) has used 5W30 for years and we don't have that many oil related problems. I just had an oil change yesterday at 40K on my 2004 and it was still right at the full mark, none added between changes.We use 5K OCI's. The last engine I lost in a patrol car was a 1988 Chevrolet that let go during a pursuit but the factory tracked it down to a faulty computer that was running the air/ fuel mixture too lean at high speed.I had a 96 Crown Vic, a 98, an 01 and now the 04 and never had a problem getting them into the 100K range before they where retired.

 

[Big O Dave]

Hey farrar! It's a LOT hotter in Fresno than it is in your neck of the woods... with your cold winters, you NEED 5w30, but in the Central Valley of California, it's HOT in the summer and never really all that cold in the winter.

Could this account for your differing experiences?

 

[427Z06]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Herndon:
427Z06: I use .0020" to .0022" oil clearance on these engines. Oil Pressure at hot idle (900 rpm) is about 35psi and oil pressure hot at 3000 rpm is around 60psi.

---

Hmmm...rather tight by SBC standards, however I'm not really familiar with Pontiac engines.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Herndon:
The large (3.00") journal diameters necessitate a lot of oil pressure and volume...

---

IMHO, I would say that they need "sufficient" oil pressure and volume. Factory engineers usually get this one close to right, but if you make changes to far from stock specs, more volume may be needed. Distribution is more likely the problem when stock engines are built for higher output levels, which are then masked by higher viscosity oils. But hey, if it works for you, go for it.

 

[427Z06]

I'm dying to see that Ford Police/Fleet Supplement Manual to see if Ford has changed their position:

http://www.pfmmag.com/MarchApril2004/MarchApril04fordPEB.htm

5W-20 Oil
Extended discussions were held, both in closed PAB sessions and in open sessions with Ford Fleet, on the use of 5W-20 oil in the 4.6L CVPI engine. In 2001, Ford changed from 5w30 oil to 5W-20 oil. Lighter oil causes less friction which increased the fuel economy of the 4.6L V-8 and Ford’s overall CAFE rating.

Ford makes it clear, all the way down to putting 5W-20 on the oil filler cap, these newer engines should use 5W-20 oil. Not all agencies do that, including some extremely credible and influential agencies that use oil as heavy as 15w40. Ford Fleet indicated that its oil viscosity recommendations should be followed, however deviating from those recommendations won’t void the warranty, unless the incorrect oil is determined to be the cause of the failure. In a related topic, Ford Fleet advised 5W-20 oil can be used in any 4.6L CVPI engine of any year all the way back to 1992.

http://www.pfmmag.com/JulyAugust2004/Julyaugustgreengas.htm


Fleet Manager Joseph T. Price of the Ohio State Highway Patrol pointed to the agency's maintenance requirements that focus specifically on the 2003 Ford. The department operates 1,250 of them on a two-car-for-every-three trooper ratio. (The agency employs 1,498 sworn officers.) The maintenance requirements are demanding.
For example, every 5,000 miles the engine oil and filter are changed- using 5W-20 motor oil- and the hood latch, hood and door hinges are lubricated.

 

[Robert Herndon]

Regarding the dishwashing detergent claim: I spoke to Tim Beebe on the way to work this afternoon and he said that is absolutely false.

He ran his nitro-burning Hemi's on Kendall SAE 50 with Wynn's Friction Proofing; a version of STP Oil Treatment.

Farrar: Our climate here is hot. Low temperatures in the winter are always above 32°F and summertime record is 109°F with an average of 104°F.

We kill these engines...Robert

 

[Robert Herndon]

427Z06: Stock oil pressure on the Pontiac 455 Super Duty was 80psi @ 3000 rpm.

There is lengthy documentation on why Pontiac specified this pressure and the use of SAE 40 oil. It was the only way they could keep this engine alive.

I think 60psi is adequate based on dyno testing, competition events and inspections.

Farrar: Trouble CHP was having was the oil light coming on after high speed runs in +100°F conditions. We have seen the same thing with less than 40,000 miles on the cars.

With the 5/20, the oil pressure would drop low enough at idle that the oil light would 'flicker' on and off until the engines cooled down.

In the case of my Pontiac....

I have been looking at some of the heavier Red-Line Synthetic Engine Oils recently. I especially like the 20/50 & 20/60 variants, since they still have better cold-flow numbers than a petroleum 20 weight.

ZDDP content will be the deciding factor...Robert