Interesting Article About Muscle Car HP
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Originally Posted By: MCompact
I have a magazine that contains a compilation of '60s and early '70s road tests from the old High Performance Cars magazine. Most of the hallowed musclecars(which I love, by the way) couldn't break into the 13s without slicks, loosening the drive belts, and pulling the air cleaner. If they returned over 12 mpg on the highway that was a bonus. Today most every V8 ponycar can break into the 12s right off the showroom floor and average 20+ mpg without breaking a sweat. And as far as braking and handling goes, the new cars are infinitely more competent. My dead stock 2er runs the 1/4 in the high twelves and gets over 31 mpg cruising at 75+. So, while I still love the "hot" cars of the '60s(and rebuild the occasional Quadrajet), I much prefer to be able to drive and track the cars you can buy now- although I would also like to have a 1970 Z/28 or AAR Cuda in my garage as well...
You are right about the times. The Red Line tires were only about 6 inches wide. I launched my pure stock 350 hp 67 SS 396 Chevelle at 2350 rpms,feathered the throttle for about 100 feet,then power shifted all the way down the strip. Best time was 14.01 @102 mph. It was a cold night. The 375 hp 396 was waaaaay more than 25 hp up on the 350. Really,it's all about the light. I was never beaten out of the hole.
I have a magazine that contains a compilation of '60s and early '70s road tests from the old High Performance Cars magazine. Most of the hallowed musclecars(which I love, by the way) couldn't break into the 13s without slicks, loosening the drive belts, and pulling the air cleaner. If they returned over 12 mpg on the highway that was a bonus. Today most every V8 ponycar can break into the 12s right off the showroom floor and average 20+ mpg without breaking a sweat. And as far as braking and handling goes, the new cars are infinitely more competent. My dead stock 2er runs the 1/4 in the high twelves and gets over 31 mpg cruising at 75+. So, while I still love the "hot" cars of the '60s(and rebuild the occasional Quadrajet), I much prefer to be able to drive and track the cars you can buy now- although I would also like to have a 1970 Z/28 or AAR Cuda in my garage as well...
You are right about the times. The Red Line tires were only about 6 inches wide. I launched my pure stock 350 hp 67 SS 396 Chevelle at 2350 rpms,feathered the throttle for about 100 feet,then power shifted all the way down the strip. Best time was 14.01 @102 mph. It was a cold night. The 375 hp 396 was waaaaay more than 25 hp up on the 350. Really,it's all about the light. I was never beaten out of the hole.
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
I would love to own a new DEMON or even Hellcat.
Well now is the time to buy that Hellcat. Recall that when they first came out, the ADMs on these cars were often ridiculous at $15K - $20K above MSRP. One of our local dealers here in FL a month ago was offering a new 2016 Hellcat Charger for $13K OFF MSRP. It was real with tax and tags as the only adds. I would have traded my Scat Pack in a heartbeat but I am dealing with some serious medical issues right now. If you look around, I would bet there are other deals like that to be had.
I would love to own a new DEMON or even Hellcat.
Well now is the time to buy that Hellcat. Recall that when they first came out, the ADMs on these cars were often ridiculous at $15K - $20K above MSRP. One of our local dealers here in FL a month ago was offering a new 2016 Hellcat Charger for $13K OFF MSRP. It was real with tax and tags as the only adds. I would have traded my Scat Pack in a heartbeat but I am dealing with some serious medical issues right now. If you look around, I would bet there are other deals like that to be had.
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Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Originally Posted By: SilverSnake
We ARE in the Golden Age of muscle cars. Enjoy it while you can.
I get building the Road Runner with a punched 440. Dunno if I'd cross that magic 500 inch mark ... I don't get along with NHRA, but I see no reason to cross their magic number. You can make stupendous HP at 498 inches.
Last time I checked, the NHRA wasn't donating any parts or money to my build.
Originally Posted By: SilverSnake
We ARE in the Golden Age of muscle cars. Enjoy it while you can.
I get building the Road Runner with a punched 440. Dunno if I'd cross that magic 500 inch mark ... I don't get along with NHRA, but I see no reason to cross their magic number. You can make stupendous HP at 498 inches.
Last time I checked, the NHRA wasn't donating any parts or money to my build.
Good points 440Magnum. During the 1992-2004 period I owned 10 different 1968-1970 Mopar muscle big block cars. 3 of them were low mileage, original paint cars with their original drive trains intact (A pair of 69 GTX automatics, a 69 SuperBee 383 automatic). Some of the other cars could have had original drive trains but no way to be sure. Still, they were all stock vehicles without drive train upgrades other than electronic ignition. On a couple of them I drove them with points and condensers on bias ply reproduction red line tires. In the same time period I owned stock 3 LT1 Trans Ams (M6 and A4) and a 1998 LS1 Z28 A4. While no doubt those newer 275-305 net hp rated cars had better top ends and handling, the old Mopars still had the low end torque to given them a serious run. My 1970 Challenger R/T 440+6 torqueflite (built stock with a dinky 22" radiator) might have beat them. The 440+6v big block delivered more torque than the Hemi 426 during the early part of a 1/4 mile run. I miss running those old torque monsters.
That guy is having a lot of fun--and he spanks almost everybody at the light. About the only car that launches with him is the old black Firebird with slicks, but then it can't keep up. The other drivers are either asleep at the light or can't get their cars to launch and hook up. Some of the newer hot rods start chasing him down once they get underway, but there's just not enough track left by then.
But don't under-estimate how much difference the 60s tires really made, that is THE single biggest factor. Just street radials, not even drag radials, let alone slicks, will certainly put a healthy (not worn out, or out of tune) b-body with a 440 in the 13s. The gripless old tires hurt the old cars even more than they'd theoretically hurt a modern car because such a big percentage of an old big block muscle car's performance is right off the line, where bias ply tires just go up in smoke.
Originally Posted By: FZ1
You are right about the times. The Red Line tires were only about 6 inches wide. I launched my pure stock 350 hp 67 SS 396 Chevelle at 2350 rpms,feathered the throttle for about 100 feet,then power shifted all the way down the strip. Best time was 14.01 @102 mph. It was a cold night. The 375 hp 396 was waaaaay more than 25 hp up on the 350. Really,it's all about the light. I was never beaten out of the hole.
I'm envious; my reaction times are awful. On top of that I can't my M235i to hook up(no LSD, street tires). I've only run at a 1/8 mile strip and my best ET has been 8.59.
You are right about the times. The Red Line tires were only about 6 inches wide. I launched my pure stock 350 hp 67 SS 396 Chevelle at 2350 rpms,feathered the throttle for about 100 feet,then power shifted all the way down the strip. Best time was 14.01 @102 mph. It was a cold night. The 375 hp 396 was waaaaay more than 25 hp up on the 350. Really,it's all about the light. I was never beaten out of the hole.
I'm envious; my reaction times are awful. On top of that I can't my M235i to hook up(no LSD, street tires). I've only run at a 1/8 mile strip and my best ET has been 8.59.
Originally Posted By: Rhymingmechanic
That guy is having a lot of fun--and he spanks almost everybody at the light. About the only car that launches with him is the old black Firebird with slicks, but then it can't keep up. The other drivers are either asleep at the light or can't get their cars to launch and hook up. Some of the newer hot rods start chasing him down once they get underway, but there's just not enough track left by then.
I just got around to watching the video, and you made the same observation I did. Not to discredit the performance of the truck- it is impressive- but the driver gets huge props because he totally "treed" the Hellcat, ZL-1, and even the Camaro SS, and that's what won those races (if he beat the Hellcat, it was passing him so fast I couldn't tell for sure if it was before or after the finish line). Winning at the starting end of the track gets magnified more than any advantage at the big end, which is why launches are so important and you can't always just run away with massive horsepower (though again, the Hellcat came darn close).
And its interesting that running a truck like that is so much fun nowdays, because back in the old days you'd often have someone that would show up with a large barge luxury car (often an Imperial with the same drivetrain as a GTX or Coronet R/T except for gear ratio) that hooked up so well and ran so consistently that it would make it through several rounds against faster muscle cars. Kinda the same game, muscle cars and their drivers then and now are often really good at beating themselves by overpowering the starting line, or else "walking it out" too gently to avoid going up in tire smoke. With a turbo truck or an old luxury car with a taller rear gear, the launch is a lot more controllable and there's not such a knife-edge between too soft and too aggressive.
People who put down drag racing as "just stepping on the gas and hanging on" are missing a whole lot of subtlety that's needed to be really competitive.
That guy is having a lot of fun--and he spanks almost everybody at the light. About the only car that launches with him is the old black Firebird with slicks, but then it can't keep up. The other drivers are either asleep at the light or can't get their cars to launch and hook up. Some of the newer hot rods start chasing him down once they get underway, but there's just not enough track left by then.
I just got around to watching the video, and you made the same observation I did. Not to discredit the performance of the truck- it is impressive- but the driver gets huge props because he totally "treed" the Hellcat, ZL-1, and even the Camaro SS, and that's what won those races (if he beat the Hellcat, it was passing him so fast I couldn't tell for sure if it was before or after the finish line). Winning at the starting end of the track gets magnified more than any advantage at the big end, which is why launches are so important and you can't always just run away with massive horsepower (though again, the Hellcat came darn close).
And its interesting that running a truck like that is so much fun nowdays, because back in the old days you'd often have someone that would show up with a large barge luxury car (often an Imperial with the same drivetrain as a GTX or Coronet R/T except for gear ratio) that hooked up so well and ran so consistently that it would make it through several rounds against faster muscle cars. Kinda the same game, muscle cars and their drivers then and now are often really good at beating themselves by overpowering the starting line, or else "walking it out" too gently to avoid going up in tire smoke. With a turbo truck or an old luxury car with a taller rear gear, the launch is a lot more controllable and there's not such a knife-edge between too soft and too aggressive.
People who put down drag racing as "just stepping on the gas and hanging on" are missing a whole lot of subtlety that's needed to be really competitive.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
But don't under-estimate how much difference the 60s tires really made, that is THE single biggest factor. Just street radials, not even drag radials, let alone slicks, will certainly put a healthy (not worn out, or out of tune) b-body with a 440 in the 13s. The gripless old tires hurt the old cars even more than they'd theoretically hurt a modern car because such a big percentage of an old big block muscle car's performance is right off the line, where bias ply tires just go up in smoke.
Very true. You have to hook them up. Spinning tires dont make you go fast.
Todays cars may be faster and get better MPG but they have no soul.
But don't under-estimate how much difference the 60s tires really made, that is THE single biggest factor. Just street radials, not even drag radials, let alone slicks, will certainly put a healthy (not worn out, or out of tune) b-body with a 440 in the 13s. The gripless old tires hurt the old cars even more than they'd theoretically hurt a modern car because such a big percentage of an old big block muscle car's performance is right off the line, where bias ply tires just go up in smoke.
Very true. You have to hook them up. Spinning tires dont make you go fast.
Todays cars may be faster and get better MPG but they have no soul.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
I just got around to watching the video, and you made the same observation I did. Not to discredit the performance of the truck- it is impressive- but the driver gets huge props because he totally "treed" the Hellcat, ZL-1, and even the Camaro SS, and that's what won those races
He tree'd them so much , i first thought they were bracket racing.
I just got around to watching the video, and you made the same observation I did. Not to discredit the performance of the truck- it is impressive- but the driver gets huge props because he totally "treed" the Hellcat, ZL-1, and even the Camaro SS, and that's what won those races
He tree'd them so much , i first thought they were bracket racing.
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Originally Posted By: gman2304
I had a set of M&H Racemasters [anybody remember those?] mounted on steelies for the drag strip. They made all the difference in hooking up or going up in smoke.
I think they predate my time. I used Mickey Thompson ET Street tires. They were essentially a slick with a couple grooves around the centre, heated up, they'd hook solid.
I had a set of M&H Racemasters [anybody remember those?] mounted on steelies for the drag strip. They made all the difference in hooking up or going up in smoke.
I think they predate my time. I used Mickey Thompson ET Street tires. They were essentially a slick with a couple grooves around the centre, heated up, they'd hook solid.
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