I'm becoming Anti-computer

Status
Not open for further replies.
Even though I haven't been to a bowling alley for many years, I always thought the simple rules for keeping score added a nice little mental exercise to the game. I understand that now it's all done automatically (although I guess it keeps people from rolling a few "practice" frames).

NOW GET OFF MY LAWN !!!!
 
I was at Radioshack the other day and the register messed up on how much change I was suppose to get back. The cashier reached for his phone. I figured it out in my head before he got it entered into his phone and I suck at math.

But I have to disagree with the op that the best things made without the use of a computer.

IE. A lot of the medical equipment used today would not be possible without the technology that we have. Not to mention the time it saves versus doing calculations by hand. Of course as others have stated, you have to understand the concepts or it's a moot point.

Another example is in research. Some research require massive amounts of data. To run the stats on hundreds and thousands of data points would take forever without statistical programs such as SPSS.
 
Originally Posted By: Popinski
It seems like the best things ever made were built and engineered without the use of a computer.


Your computer is now confiscated, go back and live in the best of time =)
 
Another point worth adding: I think the very same fundamental math skills we were taught as kids, also laid the foundation for being able to later apply reason and logic to work out things that no calculator or computer can spit the answer out to.

Just as fundamental math skills have been lost, so too have critical thinking skills, and I don't think its a coincidence. I'd bet the two are related.

As another poster said, the computer is a tool, and therefore has nothing inherently or good or bad about it. In terms of doing things much faster and more efficiently than before, and doing things with it that were impossible to do without it, it is fantastic. Likewise, it enables instant access to a wealth of information.

The only real negative from my POV is when its used at a young age as a shortcut for working things out the old fashion way; that process of working things out when learned at a young age, is an important developmental step toward developing the ability to reason other things through later.

When the process is skipped, that ability just doesn't develop. And the result is a growing mass of people who - essentially - can't think things through for themselves, and turn to other sources to find the answers for them. Then they lack the necessary critical thinking and reasoning to be able to critique that information and are left instead to simply swallow whatever they're fed.

Maybe this is why, at least in part, we are seeing our schools produce graduates with such poor levels of math and science skills, and even literacy skills.

I applaud any parent who is insisting their kids be able to work out fundamental math - including algebra and trig - on paper before allowing the use of calculators. I also agree that by the time one hits university, the fundamentals - when learned the old school way - are already so deeply embedded that the use of a calculator then isn't acting as a substitute for a fundamental ability, but merely the type tool it was envisioned to be. At that point you either have a firm understanding and grasp of the fundamentals, or you don't.

-Spyder
 
Originally Posted By: Touring5
Even though I haven't been to a bowling alley for many years, I always thought the simple rules for keeping score added a nice little mental exercise to the game. I understand that now it's all done automatically (although I guess it keeps people from rolling a few "practice" frames).

NOW GET OFF MY LAWN !!!!


I consider electronic score keeping for bowling to be one of the greatest inventions to come out of the 1980's. Keeping score by hand, while drinking beer, and having it all projected on a big screen was just too much pressure for me. :-)
 
Originally Posted By: kb01
Using ArcView or AutoCAD Map 3D, in just a few hours I can create schematics and maps that would have taken a professional cartographer or engineer month or even years. Using a digital total station or survey-grade GPS, we can survey an area 100x the speed and more accurately than using an analog transit and chains.

I think the problem is when people use technology as a crutch to avoid having to learn the fundamentals and if you take away their computer or graphing calculator, they are totally lost. That being said, technology plus a firm grip on the fundamentals makes a modern engineer, scientist, surveyor, etc. way more productive than their peers just a few decades ago.

01.gif


Well said.
 
Under the heading of being amazed at what could be done without computers... Years ago we toured the first truly hydrodynamic submarine, the Albacore (It's a diesel-electric boat), in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. I have to say I was blown away observing the intricacy of the design and realizing it was all done on paper, no 3D CAD in those days. WOW If you ever get a chance, and you're in that area, the Albacore is very worth a side-trip.
 
This is why I always respect and listen to my elders. People who grew up before the 70's have an extremely strong mind. Their brain activities are probably working 200% while the new generation's brain activity are working on the computer.

Live long and stay healthy, my elderly friends....This earth depends on YOU!!!

Edit: what a coincidence. My friend and I are teaching his 16 year old daughter on how to read a map....she depends solely on the GPS...
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Popinski
This is why I always respect and listen to my elders. People who grew up before the 70's have an extremely strong mind. Their brain activities are probably working 200% while the new generation's brain activity are working on the computer.

Oddly, the reality is something like the opposite: as you get older, a lot of your brain becomes LESS active because you have such a big repertoire of automatic responses that you almost never have to think. That actually has been suggested as a reason why elderly people in Western countries (particularly the US) have such a big problem with neurodegenerative diseases (Alzheimer's, Lou Gherig's disease, etc.), whereas elderly people in third-world countries do not.

Some of what the older generation does (e.g. basic math, street smarts) is impressive to us. I guarantee you that there is a LOT that we do (use of technology, speed of visual processing, multitasking) that impresses them just as much.
 
Actually if you think about it the first trip to the moon was done largely with calculations done with slide rules. Even hand calcs have more capacity than their's did then. My kids look at me like I'm nuts when I give them a answer without having to figure it out at least on paper, but more than likely they whip out their smart phone and use the calc on it. Heck I'm rusty as heck now because I don't have to do the math like used to hav to.
 
As an engineer with an advanced degree, who also engages with others ranging from brand new out of school through absolute top experts in their field, I see it two ways.

One side of it is that with the prevalence of modern technology, one can begin to do much more complex stuff much earlier and faster with the use of technology. Time that would be spent on more detailed basis of how to do certain calculations, maths of different types, etc. can all be lumped to become sort of generic... but since it is done and can be done easily, more complex topics can be covered sooner.

At the same time, the fundamental understanding and intuition that is given by really, truly understanding from deep in one's brain what the fundamentals mean is valuable. It creates the opportunity to truly grasp to a somewhat deeper level, as second nature, some of the concepts that get lost in the aggressive push to do more "difficult" or "advanced" stuff.

It really becomes two schools of thought. Give a kid some tools so they know as much high level knowledge as someone who has worked for 30 years, vs. give someone the tools and then they can grasp and know more detailed and difficult concepts as they grow and progress.

Dont know what is right. There is no excuse however for the most basic concepts and explanation of the physical world to be known and explained mathematically to everyone. The inability of the bulk of the population to understand the physics of the world around them and the maths that can describe it is why we have become so stupid as a society. At least 100 years ago people had a bit closer interaction with nature. Tech should be an efficiency tool, not an excuse to ignore major concepts. Some stuff may become somewhat obsolete because of efficient calculation, but we must be very careful with such thoughts.
 
Nobody (especially me) is talking about abandoning technology, but the people that are taught to USE the technology should have an understanding of how things work and why.

The late teen who told me that a loaf of bread and a litre of milk was going to cost me $298, should never have even accepted that $298 was an answer for the sum of 2 items, less than $2 each (was back in the day when checkouts were simply calculators).

Similarly, a decent technician on finite element analysis should be able to reject wrong findings, and find out why his model was wrong, rather than writing a report which is blatantly wrong. Doesn't need to be able to do F.E. by matrix manipulation (but it wouldn't hurt if the training included at least that once).

People, and particularly professionals, should at least know the fundamental real world physics behind their craft that they can carry out high level basics on paper...and identify answers that are just plain wrong with gut (developed) instinct.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d

Oddly, the reality is something like the opposite: as you get older, a lot of your brain becomes LESS active because you have such a big repertoire of automatic responses that you almost never have to think. That actually has been suggested as a reason why elderly people in Western countries (particularly the US) have such a big problem with neurodegenerative diseases (Alzheimer's, Lou Gherig's disease, etc.), whereas elderly people in third-world countries do not.

Some of what the older generation does (e.g. basic math, street smarts) is impressive to us. I guarantee you that there is a LOT that we do (use of technology, speed of visual processing, multitasking) that impresses them just as much.


Well stated. Also why people become more resistant to change as they grow older, and tend to have much more trouble adapting to it (the two go hand in hand).

My two surviving grand parents, both into their 90s, have dementia. My Grandfather I've watched it run its downward course over the past several years, to the point where he no longer knows me (my last visit being the first exception I've seen in the last few years, where I brought my mom out to see them while she was here visiting; the recognition didn't come immediately, but eventually it did).

My Grandmother on the other side made it to the age of 88, but spent the last several years of her life suffering the effects of the same thing, until it reached a point where she no longer could even communicate, and died shortly after.

Prior to that setting in, though, I treasured hearing the stories from them, as I would get to hear a first hand account of the many tremendous changes they bore witness to over their lifetimes. My two surviving grand parents were already married and had their first kids before we were even part of Canada (prior to 1949 we were still a British colony, being the last province to join confederation).

I have tremendous respect for the elderly because they survived times far harsher than our own, witnessed first hand so many changes in their lifetimes, and are treasure troves of information that they can recount in the kind of vivid, interactive, format that is naturally absent in historical texts.

Its a crime that they, who put in place through their efforts and tax dollars, are reduced to poverty in their golden years and so marginalized by a society that takes so much for granted today only because it has the luxury to do so because they provided for them the same institutions that have since been corrupted and turned against them.

This was a topic mom and I discussed on the drive back from that visit (she's a nurse who began her nursing career, and worked for decades, at a nursing home for seniors), that left us both feeling morose at this sad state of affairs in supposedly civilized society.

-Spyder
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Nobody (especially me) is talking about abandoning technology, but the people that are taught to USE the technology should have an understanding of how things work and why.


Indeed. I was merely reflecting on two things mainly. One being we think we know a bunch more just because of the existence of computers and the net (and we probably do), but my daughter still didn't know Loki. And we still can be humbled by what we DON'T know.......
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Nobody (especially me) is talking about abandoning technology, but the people that are taught to USE the technology should have an understanding of how things work and why.


Indeed. I was merely reflecting on two things mainly. One being we think we know a bunch more just because of the existence of computers and the net (and we probably do)


Ironically, I would make the opposite argument. Going back to my time in school, when there was no net, no laptop and the only phones were rotary, education was multi-faceted with equal stress placed on everything from math, to sciences, to English and language (separate courses), history, religion, geography, cultural studies, social studies, and so it went. By the time you finished school at the secondary level, you were a pretty well-rounded product of that system, and even if you took it no further, I've (and my peers from the same schools) forgotten more than the products of many colleges today know - beyond their narrow discipline of choice.

They may be very fluent in their particular vocation, whatever it may be. Outside that, they are remarkably clueless. Exceptions exist, many of them, but there has been such a push toward molding the pupil into a vocation specific product, combined with the abundance of technological shortcuts that allow access to more information, and yet less incentive to avail of that information, that its little wonder ours has become a culture more knowledgeable about the latest happenings in the life of Paris Hilton, then things of substance.

The push is no longer toward knowledge for its intrinsic value and how that knowledge creates well rounded, civic minded people. Instead its purely about the bottom line: if it doesn't translate directly to monetary value, then it has no value. The more money involved, the more the value attached.

So you wind up with a cultural void as the only thing that matters are things with a dollar value attached or that which is symbolic of it. Everything else is unimportant and seen as having no value.

Maybe I'm wrong on this score. I'd very much like to believe I am or become convinced that I am.

-Spyder
 
Originally Posted By: 65cuda
My kids look at me like I'm nuts when I give them a answer without having to figure it out at least on paper, but more than likely they whip out their smart phone and use the calc on it. Heck I'm rusty as heck now because I don't have to do the math like used to hav to.


My kids aren't old enough to be doing that kind of math yet.

But I'm really amazed at my nephews ability to do math in their head and very rapidly on paper. It seems like they're being taught how to do basic asthmatic equations differently than what I learned, where they work left-to-right instead of how I do it, right-to-left.

I know there's a lot of bashing of kids on this subject but I'm very impressed with the education of all of my nieces and nephews. They seem to have about 10x the academic pressure that I ever had -- when I was in school, there weren't AP or honors classes, and you took your six classes and two study halls a day and were happy with anything above a 2.5 GPA. I also don't recall having homework until Jr. High and my niece in 1st grade has about an hour's worth a night.
 
Originally Posted By: kb01

My kids aren't old enough to be doing that kind of math yet.

But I'm really amazed at my nephews ability to do math in their head and very rapidly on paper. It seems like they're being taught how to do basic asthmatic equations differently than what I learned, where they work left-to-right instead of how I do it, right-to-left.

I know there's a lot of bashing of kids on this subject but I'm very impressed with the education of all of my nieces and nephews. They seem to have about 10x the academic pressure that I ever had -- when I was in school, there weren't AP or honors classes, and you took your six classes and two study halls a day and were happy with anything above a 2.5 GPA. I also don't recall having homework until Jr. High and my niece in 1st grade has about an hour's worth a night.


My math teacher back in middle school said there's no short cut to learning, and told us at the beginning of the semester that we will do about 20000 math questions in 2 years. It is not doing left to right vs right to left, but the amount of work and effort put in (i.e. your niece's homework).

The education system of today is more demanding and challenging than in the past. Parents always though their generation is the best and their kids aren't up to what they used to be. Heck, even Confucius said so during his time.

What really happens is that today's school are more challenging if the students want it to be. The same school has AP classes and remedial classes at the same time now, but people tends to bash the worst case scenario on how students aren't learning what they should have by their age.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: PandaBear

The education system of today is more demanding and challenging than in the past. Parents always though their generation is the best and their kids aren't up to what they used to be.


Is it? When I went to school, to take math or physics (especially the latter) as examples, if you just wrote the answer - correct - or not, it got the big red X next to it. To be correct, you not only had to provide the answer, but show all workings as well. This was because even if you could do the easy stuff in your head, the stuff that came later had to be worked out on paper (calculators were not permitted, even when they did arrive), and if you skipped the foundation steps initially, you'd find yourself lost further in.

Is this still the case? How much are the kids of today learning in class while they text back and forth or surf facebook on their iphones?

What you post is at odds with the functional illiteracy rates among high school graduates today.

-Spyder
 
Originally Posted By: Spyder7
Is this still the case? How much are the kids of today learning in class while they text back and forth or surf facebook on their iphones?

What you post is at odds with the functional illiteracy rates among high school graduates today.

-Spyder


Like I said, it depends on the students and the classes / schools.

Yes, you still need to provide all the steps leading to your answers and no, things are not all scantron and multiple choices (those teachers who use only scantrons should be fired).

As far as I know any student caught using phone or electronics in class would get the gadget confiscated.
 
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: Spyder7
Is this still the case? How much are the kids of today learning in class while they text back and forth or surf facebook on their iphones?

What you post is at odds with the functional illiteracy rates among high school graduates today.

-Spyder


Like I said, it depends on the students and the classes / schools.

Yes, you still need to provide all the steps leading to your answers and no, things are not all scantron and multiple choices (those teachers who use only scantrons should be fired).

As far as I know any student caught using phone or electronics in class would get the gadget confiscated.


Agreed. The comment always was, how are you going to get partial credit if you dont show your work?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom