I'm becoming Anti-computer

[Popinski]

Yesterday I visited the locomotive, steam engine show at a nearby farm. I am so amazed how so much was done in this world without the help of computers. These large things were done by pencil, paper, and the man's mind. Mathematics were done in the head, problem solving were done manually, metal was stamped by machines that were engineered and built by men who used no computers. The Amish still build homes without using computers and their homes are very high quality like their furniture.

It seems like the best things ever made were built and engineered without the use of a computer.

....well, that's my final thought of the night. I'm going to drink my 6th beer and that will complete my 6-pack. Good night, folks.

P.S. I tried to solve some Mathematical problems on the internet without using a calculator. IMPOSSIBLE. Mankind is screwed!!

 

[SOHCman]

Looks like beer has made bud wiser, that reminds me BEER was invented LONG before the computers time! (fanfare and cheers!)

 

[Spyder7]

Some of us here are probably old enough to remember learning multiplication tables, and being proficient enough at math to either do it in our head, or work it out in a minute or two on a piece of srap paper.

I had an eye opener when playing cards with a 23 year old co-worker who had to rely on her phone's calculator to add up her score. She looked at it me like I was Houdini when I did the simple addition in my head and gave her the answer before her phone spat out the same thing.

Computers are both a blessing and a curse. Blessing in that they allow complex things to be done much faster. Curse in that people have become too reliant on them at the expense of their atrophying brains - as in my example above.

-Spyder

 

[Turk]

Originally Posted By: Spyder7
Some of us here are probably old enough to remember learning multiplication tables, and being proficient enough at math to either do it in our head, or work it out in a minute or two on a piece of srap paper.

I had an eye opener when playing cards with a 23 year old co-worker who had to rely on her phone's calculator to add up her score. She looked at it me like I was Houdini when I did the simple addition in my head and gave her the answer before her phone spat out the same thing.

Computers are both a blessing and a curse. Blessing in that they allow complex things to be done much faster. Curse in that people have become too reliant on them at the expense of their atrophying brains - as in my example above.

-Spyder


Yep, that be me! It blows me away what the teens & early 20's are lacking in this & common sense. Common sense isn't so common anymore.

 

[Shannow]

I'm seeing new engineers fresh out of University who cannot explain to me Hooke's Law...

When I was tutoring Senior HS Chemistry, the first thing that I would do is take away their calculator during tutoring, as it seemed to numb them to the actual understanding bit.

When watching a flow meter circling, I try to get a feel for the timing of the sweeps, the volume in the sweeps and reckon a flow rate in my head, to try to establish/maintain a feel for the physical aspect of the measurement system...l/s, m^3 per tonne/day etc.

Computers have made everything so easy to calculate, but so hard to comprehend, as the learning process is bypassed, and the answering process therefore unquestionable.

However, 3-4 weeks ago, I did decide to understand paper methods of working square roots (I realised I couldn't do it reaching for a calculator), and used my computer, wi-fi, and the internet to find out how to do it.

A day without learning is truly a day wasted.

 

[Pablo]

I agree in someways with the sentiment.

On the pure eyestrain level, I just renewed my IBD subscription. Two years, saved cash, get free 6 weeks, books, etc....then he said you can REALLY save if you get the computer version only, no paper.......well, no thanks - yes are already burned out...

My daughter of 13 (today!) had to wiki "Loki" - she had no clue.

Heheheh - I used to drive to the library. Now I can stay home ad be proven stupid and ignorant.....

 

[mpvue]

my 2 oldest are 8 and 11 and they are learning math the regular way, working it out on paper. I actually like how their textbook shows many different problem solving methods so they see how numbers work together.
helping my older child I was happy to find that I could still explain algebra.
I think calculators are used more by teenagers and adults who are lazy.

 

[Dave Sherman]

I remember one day at Radio Shack, my first job. I was studying electrical engineering at the time. A guy was returning something and exchanging it for something else. Seemed like a normal thing, but then he got all flustered by the receipt, which showed two items, one with a negative price for the item he was returning and the one he bought with a positive price, and a negative number showing what we refunded him.

Him: "I paid tax on that thing, you didn't refund my tax".
Me: "Yes, you got refunded your tax because tax is calculated on the subtotal."
"I teach math, that negative price should show the negative price with the tax factored in, it doesn't show that."
"No, if that happened, then you be getting tax factored in twice. This is the distributive property of mathematics."
"The what?" (oh boy, you teach math?)

By now, he was starting to get annoyed because some 19 year old was trying to tell him he's wrong, he's convinced we're ripping him off, and of course, people assume we know nothing if we work at Radio Shack. My boss came over, and he tried to explain the same thing. The guy still didn't get it. We finally had to get pencil and paper and a calculator to prove to him a very simple property and it really was calculating negative tax on what he was returning:

A*(X-Y) = (A*X)-(A*Y)

 

[glum]

Am I the only one who is drowning in the irony of an anti-technology rant (semi-serious or not) being posted on the internet?

There's a word (or phrase) for misremembering the past and looking at it through rose-colored glasses. I can't remember what it is...

Computers are neither good nor bad. They are merely tools. When used well, they are fantastic tools that do a huge amount of good. The people who developed them did not say "Here you go; now make sure you only use this to prevent having to think or do things right!"

I'm pretty sure the state of our products and services isn't where it is because computers made it worse. So far I have not seen robots building low-quality houses. People who produce low-quality things would have done the same without computers, simply to meet demand for "more, faster". There were plenty of horrible vehicles and other products before computers entered the picture.

Computers can also be great tools for learning. I am very thankful that I have access to the internet; it really helped my daughter learn to read. I did not point her there to relieve myself from the burden; I did so because there are some really great web sites that have been thoughtfully produced.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Popinski
Yesterday I visited the locomotive, steam engine show at a nearby farm. I am so amazed how so much was done in this world without the help of computers. These large things were done by pencil, paper, and the man's mind. Mathematics were done in the head, problem solving were done manually, metal was stamped by machines that were engineered and built by men who used no computers. The Amish still build homes without using computers and their homes are very high quality like their furniture.

And now we have bullet trains, better farms, and advanced materials -- largely thanks to computers that can do calculations that we could never dream of. Progress!

There's a lot to be said for what we've lost because of technology, but I think you've overstated and mis-stated that case quite drastically.

 

[crw]

There is a lot to be said for quality engineering and a job well done. When I look at my 1951 Vintage Ford 8N tractor, there is a lot that was well thought out on that machine. And the fact that it still works great after sitting outdoors in the elements after 60 YEARS, that's amazing.

I have similar sentiments for my 1975 BMW 2002. When I drive it, I get the overwhelming feeling that this is NOT a disposable car. If rust weren't a natural phenomenon, I think it could last forever with careful maintenance. And because it's so fun to drive, a person would want to keep it forever.

 

[RedByrd]

I guess I'm one of those lazy college students that has to use a calculator for everything.

My use of a calculator is not driven by the need for a crutch, but for the need to be precise. In my field of study, we have to be accurate to four decimal places in everything we do, because even .0001 can mess up an equation. Not to mention when using inferential statistical formulas, a calculator can give a result for any value instead of using a table and having to extrapolate. Even people good at mental math would have trouble averaging data sets with over 450 values.

I would take being right over being seen as lazy any day.

 

[crw]

Originally Posted By: RedByrd
In my field of study, we have to be accurate to four decimal places in everything, because even .0001 can mess up an equation.


That's interesting, because in engineering, or traditional engineering we're taught to use the 10% rule. (If you're within 10%, you're right!)

 

[crw]

I don't disagree with the desire to be accurate. But you'd be surprised how much of the computer you're sitting at now is done with the 10% rule, to some degree. In the end, the components must meet certain specs. In the end, the device must pass final test. But in the design... many things cannot be measured or simulated to four digits anyway, and so in the design many things are simplified.

 

[crw]

What happened to the post I was responding to...? lol...

 

[glum]

Originally Posted By: crw
What happened to the post I was responding to...? lol...

Hah, sorry... I felt like an idiot after posting it and blew it away.

 

[Pop_Rivit]

Originally Posted By: glum
Am I the only one who is drowning in the irony of an anti-technology rant (semi-serious or not) being posted on the internet?

There's a word (or phrase) for misremembering the past and looking at it through rose-colored glasses. I can't remember what it is...

Computers are neither good nor bad. They are merely tools.


Agreed. It's easy to look back at the past and believe things were better back then, and that people had a higher level of intelligence. However that simply isn't true.

I own a couple old Ford tractors-built between 1939 and 1952. In their day they were marvels of technology and made agriculture much more efficient. That being said, by today's standards they are novel antiques, and while good for mowing an acreage or blading a driveway they aren't much use for modern agriculture. They're an escape from technology, but the reality is they are the past, and the present is a much different world.

I also have the privilege of working with some brilliant programmers. To think that these people can't work things out in their head is simply wrong-they're constantly working things out in their head before putting it in code. I have no doubt that if their education and experience were applied to another field they'd excel and be able to think ahead in that field too.

Quote:
It seems like the best things ever made were built and engineered without the use of a computer


Yeah, things like the space shuttle, modern medicine, stealth aircraft and modern telecommunications are all pretty much non-events, right? All could have been done before the advent of the computer, correct?

 

[kb01]

I'm old enough that I've worked with actual, paper blueprints and engineering schematics (aka "pencil CAD"), as well as the modern replacements with AutoCAD and ArcView.

Using ArcView or AutoCAD Map 3D, in just a few hours I can create schematics and maps that would have taken a professional cartographer or engineer month or even years. Using a digital total station or survey-grade GPS, we can survey an area 100x the speed and more accurately than using an analog transit and chains.

I think the problem is when people use technology as a crutch to avoid having to learn the fundamentals and if you take away their computer or graphing calculator, they are totally lost. That being said, technology plus a firm grip on the fundamentals makes a modern engineer, scientist, surveyor, etc. way more productive than their peers just a few decades ago.

 

[crw]

Originally Posted By: glum
Originally Posted By: crw
What happened to the post I was responding to...? lol...

Hah, sorry... I felt like an idiot after posting it and blew it away.

No problem... I almost went into metrology, so I was actually curious. (Metrology, not meteorology!) Somehow the spell checker doesn't know what metrology is, or maybe I actually misspelled it!

 

[mpvue]

Originally Posted By: RedByrd
I guess I'm one of those lazy college students that has to use a calculator for everything.

My use of a calculator is not driven by the need for a crutch, but for the need to be precise. In my field of study, we have to be accurate to four decimal places in everything we do, because even .0001 can mess up an equation. Not to mention when using inferential statistical formulas, a calculator can give a result for any value instead of using a table and having to extrapolate. Even people good at mental math would have trouble averaging data sets with over 450 values.

I would take being right over being seen as lazy any day.

I wasn't really referring to your kind of work; I think the tone of the thread is about people who do not know how to figure out tax or how to do basic arithmetic and have to use a calculator for that.