I want to try a "designer" oil.

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: webfors
I have no problem with bitog favorites, as long as they are eventually backed up with a multitude of beautiful UOAs

Otherwise, it's marketing getting the best of us... again


UOAs are only useful for determining remaining oil life and coolant leaks. Choosing an oil based on wear metals from a UOA is a very poor choice. Teardowns are the only way to guage wear and many times don't correlate with UOAs.

 

[webfors]

Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: webfors
I have no problem with bitog favorites, as long as they are eventually backed up with a multitude of beautiful UOAs

Otherwise, it's marketing getting the best of us... again


UOAs are only useful for determining remaining oil life and coolant leaks. Choosing an oil based on wear metals from a UOA is a very poor choice. Teardowns are the only way to guage wear and many times don't correlate with UOAs.


Agreed. Funny how you thought my definition of a beautiful UOA is directly related to wear metals only...

I use UOAs to determine the health of an oil in a particular application and oci. I simply want to see many more RL UOAs in extended drain intervals before I state something as fact. And this is from someone who is

to try Redline.

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: webfors
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: webfors
I have no problem with bitog favorites, as long as they are eventually backed up with a multitude of beautiful UOAs

Otherwise, it's marketing getting the best of us... again


UOAs are only useful for determining remaining oil life and coolant leaks. Choosing an oil based on wear metals from a UOA is a very poor choice. Teardowns are the only way to guage wear and many times don't correlate with UOAs.


Agreed. Funny how you thought my definition of a beautiful UOA is directly related to wear metals only...

I use UOAs to determine the health of an oil in a particular application and oci. I simply want to see many more RL UOAs in extended drain intervals before I state something as fact. And this is from someone who is

to try Redline.


I'm on my second run of Redline and would be happy to UOA it for you but I only run it between 5-7.5K. I'm sure the wear metals would be a bit weird since it's only the second run. Are you looking for the longer 10,000+ mile intervals? Who knows, if my company continues with the layoffs I may be able to do a 20,000 mile UOA lol.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I would trust Mobil 1 0w-40 over Red Line for long drains, but that's just me...


Why?

Mobil 1 0w-40 is approved for almost every long-drain spec in the book.

I also get the impression that long drains are a higher priority in Mobil 1 formulations in general than in Red Line.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I also get the impression that long drains are a higher priority in Mobil 1 formulations in general than in Red Line.


I don't get that impression at all.

http://www.redlineoil.com/techinfo_faq.aspx

Originally Posted By: Red Line
Q: How often should I change my Red Line oil?

It depends on how you drive. If you do a lot of city driving or low speed/low frequency driving, we recommend oil changes at 7500 miles. Vehicles that see more highway driving can go a maximum of 15,000 to 18,000 miles with an oil filter change in between. Modern filter technology and the latest, clean-burning fuels have reduced the solids that contaminate oil, so frequent filter changes aren't usually necessary.


http://www.redlineoil.com/news_article.aspx?id=13

M1 only makes extended drain claims for their EP line:

Originally Posted By: Mobil 1
You've never seen an oil like this before. Mobil 1 Extended Performance is a high-endurance motor oil designed for longer service intervals. It is a fully synthetic formulation that helps extend engine life, reduce oil breakdown and minimize engine wear -- all while helping to keep your engine clean. Improvements that add up to exceptional protection for 15,000 miles. Guaranteed.


https://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_Extended_Performance.aspx

No mention from M1 on an extended drain capability in their non-EP oils that I can find.

 

[webfors]

My take is if I'm going to spend more money on oil I want to run it out longer. I've run PP in my Forester since 10k and currently run 6-7k oci's with it. Redline would cost me 2.5 times over the cost I paid for PP on sale. I recently put M1 0w40 in my engine (first change from PP ever) at a cost of 1.7 times the cost and it was a big deal to me

I'm going to run it out 10k miles to justify the extra cost.

Moral of the story is, I need more convincing to spend that kind of money for oil, and not just 'feel good' stories.

Now, a 20k mile UOA on RL might just convince me, assuming it came back pretty

 

[saaber1]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I also get the impression that long drains are a higher priority in Mobil 1 formulations in general than in Red Line.

I don't get that impression at all.

I think sometimes the non-typical TAN and TBN sometimes seen with ester based oils makes one think they automatically are shorter drain. There is a bit of a different set of rules when interpreting ester-based UOAs in terms of TAN and TBN as discussed (but not enough IMO) in other threads. For example, most redline VOAs I have seen have a starting TAN of about 2.5 which is high compared to many PAO oils. To speak intelligently about the TBN/TAN levels in esters and the complex interactions we need experts like TomNJ or Molakule IMO.

We also know that both Redline (POE) and Renewable Lubricants (Diester) claim longer drain ability with their oils.

It also depends on how you define long drain ability too. If an owner were to rely on a typical manufacturer condemnation point of 15% loss of kv100, for example, some of the oils you might think of as long drain are sheared to beyond 20% in just a couple thousand miles or less in some engines (2.0 FSI for example). Whereas some of the more shear stable oils may last 5k, 7k, or longer before shearing that much.

IMO we need to look at all factors, preferably based as much as possible on UOA or testing data instead of marketing claims, to see if an oil is a "long drain" oil.

 

[Steve S]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Personally if I was going to spend some $$ for oil, there is no question I'd go with Amsoil SSO in 0w30 weight.

I'd get it from one of the board sponsors.

But this is from someone who has had many engines still going with 200k+, 300k+ and close to 400k on whatever oil was on sale.

Take care, bill
What most people don't realize that if for example 100 ppm gives all the protection needed for the pressures applied to the engine 200 ppm will not make any difference. Ihat being said if you are going to use a syn oil and take full advantage of the benefits of the syn base oils, the Amsoil 0w30 seems to hold up to its claims of long life. Look up the uoas on the oil.

 

[d00df00d]

Ben, we've been through this before and I'm not going to do it again. It's a subjective impression. Neither of us has the means to prove it either way.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: saaber1
I think sometimes the non-typical TAN and TBN sometimes seen with ester based oils makes one think they automatically are shorter drain. There is a bit of a different set of rules when interpreting ester-based UOAs in terms of TAN and TBN as discussed (but not enough IMO) in other threads. For example, most redline VOAs I have seen have a starting TAN of about 2.5 which is high compared to many PAO oils. To speak intelligently about the TBN/TAN levels in esters and the complex interactions we need experts like TomNJ or Molakule IMO.

We also know that both Redline (POE) and Renewable Lubricants (Diester) claim longer drain ability with their oils.

It also depends on how you define long drain ability too. If an owner were to rely on a typical manufacturer condemnation point of 15% loss of kv100, for example, some of the oils you might think of as long drain are sheared to beyond 20% in just a couple thousand miles or less in some engines (2.0 FSI for example). Whereas some of the more shear stable oils may last 5k, 7k, or longer before shearing that much.

IMO we need to look at all factors, preferably based as much as possible on UOA or testing data instead of marketing claims, to see if an oil is a "long drain" oil.


+1 to it all...

 

[Steve S]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

[quote=BuickGN

..but you seem to be dedicated to the 7500 mile deal. I don't even think you need a synthetic for that with the type of driving you're doing.
This is exactly what I have been trying to get across for many years. There is really no advantage to use a long life syn oil and treat it like a short drain dino oil. Wrong application and a misunderstanding of the product.

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: Steve S
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

[quote=BuickGN

..but you seem to be dedicated to the 7500 mile deal. I don't even think you need a synthetic for that with the type of driving you're doing.
This is exactly what I have been trying to get across for many years. There is really no advantage to use a long life syn oil and treat it like a short drain dino oil. Wrong application and a misunderstanding of the product.


And the cycle continues. We all know the advantages of synthetics yet we pretend an extended drain is the only advantage.

 

[webfors]

To Steve's defense he did say "long life syn", implying oils that are marketed for 'extended drains', which not all syns are marketed as.

I agree though, there are definitely more benefits than just extended drains. For example, I'm running a 40 weight this winter (M1 0w40). I would not dare run *any* dino 40 weight through our winters here.

 

[ADFD1]

Other than a complete and total waste of $$$ is there anyother downside to running long drain oil for short intervals?

 

[webfors]

Originally Posted By: ADFD1
Other than a complete and total waste of $$$ is there anyother downside to running long drain oil for short intervals?


No downsides... just the money factor

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: webfors
To Steve's defense he did say "long life syn", implying oils that are marketed for 'extended drains', which not all syns are marketed as.

I agree though, there are definitely more benefits than just extended drains. For example, I'm running a 40 weight this winter (M1 0w40). I would not dare run *any* dino 40 weight through our winters here.



Understood. I took it as by nature syns are long life but you're probably right.

 

[Steve S]

Amsoils forte is long life oils and filters, All HDEOS whether syn or dino are long drain capable oils. Redline street oils should go the distance. Schaefers makes long drain capable oils. As do other mfgs or blenders. IMO why pay for the long life and not use it?

 

[Steve S]

Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: webfors
To Steve's defense he did say "long life syn", implying oils that are marketed for 'extended drains', which not all syns are marketed as.

I agree though, there are definitely more benefits than just extended drains. For example, I'm running a 40 weight this winter (M1 0w40). I would not dare run *any* dino 40 weight through our winters here.



Understood. I took it as by nature syns are long life but you're probably right.
That is what most companies promote. More stability over time and use.