I think I'm done fussing over filters

[tig1]

Originally Posted by Trav
I don't worry too much about oil filters or their efficiency as long as the element remains in one piece, I don't want bits going into the oil galley. I do worry about the air filter, keeping the housing tight and properly sealed and the PCV system sealed and in good working order, that is where the dirt ingress occurs,

+1. The oil you use is far more important than the filter you use.

 

[CR94]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Regardless ... if the ADBV was leaky, doing the test I did would allow trapped oil in the filter to leak out. ...
True, but beside the point.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by CR94
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Regardless ... if the ADBV was leaky, doing the test I did would allow trapped oil in the filter to leak out. ...
True, but beside the point.


What is your point? Mine point is if an ADBV leaks it's going to allow oil to flow out of the galleries above the filter, and also out of the filter, which can result in a noisy start-up. Filter efficiency has nothing to do with cold motor start-up noise, which was the other related point I was making.

 

[LeakySeals]

When changing the oil after shutting down, I notice most of the oil being held ahead of the oil filter by the ADBV is gone within an hour or so. No matter what type of oil filter I use. No matter what make or model engine. So if I wait for a bit, less mess unscrewing the filter.

When cold starting a GM LS motor, you may get a startup rattle, also known as a "piston slap" until the motor runs for a bit. I had that.

Some VVT equipped engines will rattle at startup until enough oil pressure is created to unlock the actuator. I had that problem too.

Both went away by changing to a lower efficiency oil filter. Hot swapped into the existing oil to verify any change.

I think the higher efficiency filters cause a delay in oil flow and pressure at startup. Higher filtration efficiency comes from smaller holes or pores in the media. Which will slow oil flow. Especially during morning startups when the oil is cold, thicker and all the oil held by the ADBV has receded back to the filter. IMO that increased delay from a high efficiency filter can be enough to give some engines a dry start rattle of some type.

 

[tundraotto]

^ Winner, Winner, Chicken Dinner. My guess also.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted by tig1
Originally Posted by Trav
I don't worry too much about oil filters or their efficiency as long as the element remains in one piece, I don't want bits going into the oil galley. I do worry about the air filter, keeping the housing tight and properly sealed and the PCV system sealed and in good working order, that is where the dirt ingress occurs,

+1. The oil you use is far more important than the filter you use.

Not sure that's provable. I tend to think its not correct.

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/30697/choose-oil-filter

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by LeakySeals
I think the higher efficiency filters cause a delay in oil flow and pressure at startup. Higher filtration efficiency comes from smaller holes or pores in the media. Which will slow oil flow. Especially during morning startups when the oil is cold, thicker and all the oil held by the ADBV has receded back to the filter. IMO that increased delay from a high efficiency filter can be enough to give some engines a dry start rattle of some type.


Not really unless you have a positive displacement oil pump that's bad. Oiling systems with a PD oil pump are not like the water system in your house. PD oil pumps will force the same volume through a higher resistance, unless the pump is toast and leaks like crazy around the pump lobes.

If the oiling system leaks oil out of it while sitting, then that's a totally different issue. Does this engine make start-up noises when you do an oil and filter change and go to start it up for the first time? It should if it also makes start-up noises if just sitting over night.

 

[Triple_Se7en]

Originally Posted by LeakySeals
When changing the oil after shutting down, I notice most of the oil being held ahead of the oil filter by the ADBV is gone within an hour or so. No matter what type of oil filter I use. No matter what make or model engine. So if I wait for a bit, less mess unscrewing the filter.

When cold starting a GM LS motor, you may get a startup rattle, also known as a "piston slap" until the motor runs for a bit. I had that.

Some VVT equipped engines will rattle at startup until enough oil pressure is created to unlock the actuator. I had that problem too.

Both went away by changing to a lower efficiency oil filter. Hot swapped into the existing oil to verify any change.

I think the higher efficiency filters cause a delay in oil flow and pressure at startup. Higher filtration efficiency comes from smaller holes or pores in the media. Which will slow oil flow. Especially during morning startups when the oil is cold, thicker and all the oil held by the ADBV has receded back to the filter. IMO that increased delay from a high efficiency filter can be enough to give some engines a dry start rattle of some type.


Excellent post!
I also wait at least one hour, before uninstalling a filter. Sometimes two hours I'll let the used oil drip into my plastic oil catcher.
Reason?...... less oil spilling out above the filter and the darn filter is just too hot to handle with 10mm nitrile gloves, if I don't wait 1-2 hours.

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted by LeakySeals
When changing the oil after shutting down, I notice most of the oil being held ahead of the oil filter by the ADBV is gone within an hour or so. No matter what type of oil filter I use. No matter what make or model engine. So if I wait for a bit, less mess unscrewing the filter.


Some VVT equipped engines will rattle at startup until enough oil pressure is created to unlock the actuator. I had that problem too.


I kinda noticed that on the Subaru I care for - the factory Fram holds maybe an ounce of oil when I remove it. The Toyota equivalent of the "fat" AA130 filter also does that. I saw a friend remove a upside down filter on a VW TSI and it's bone dry. But funny, the semi-vertical filters on a Toyota MZ V6 and a Honda hold some oil enough to make a mess.

I wonder if that's the reason why the Japanese OEMs spec flow over filtration to keep the VVT system happy? Toyota doesn't spec a magical fleece/synthetic media for their 10K "normal" OCIs and the service Honda/Subaru filter is a Fram. Hyundai of course wants their filters - probably why Wix is reboxing a Mann+Hummel Korea filter for the 51334?

 

[LeakySeals]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by LeakySeals
I think the higher efficiency filters cause a delay in oil flow and pressure at startup. Higher filtration efficiency comes from smaller holes or pores in the media. Which will slow oil flow. Especially during morning startups when the oil is cold, thicker and all the oil held by the ADBV has receded back to the filter. IMO that increased delay from a high efficiency filter can be enough to give some engines a dry start rattle of some type.


Not really unless you have a positive displacement oil pump that's bad. Oiling systems with a PD oil pump are not like the water system in your house. PD oil pumps will force the same volume through a higher resistance, unless the pump is toast and leaks like crazy around the pump lobes.

If the oiling system leaks oil out of it while sitting, then that's a totally different issue. Does this engine make start-up noises when you do an oil and filter change and go to start it up for the first time? It should if it also makes start-up noises if just sitting over night.

Positive and Variable displacement oil pumps do their thing during operation. But what happens at startup when there is no pressure or flow. Depending on how fast the engine starts when you turn it over, there is period of time when the engine relies completely on left over oil film for lubrication. How long will it rattle metal on metal waiting for the pump to create flow, react to pressure or the relief/bypass valve kicks in? I say longer if the filter is somehow a bottleneck.

The 6.0 and 5.3 rattle/slap is not very noticeable first start after an oil change. I don't prime the filter so there was definitely a lag. Not noticeable the first few weeks. Very faint. But during the OCI the startup rattle/piston slap (in the morning, first start, cool or cold days) would get more pronounced, last longer. The 6.0 was making so much noise during one OCI I hot swapped the filter thinking perhaps there was a internal failure. Swapped an Ultra for a TG. Topped off. Next morning, gone. Hot swapped the 5.3. Pretty much gone. Just like that. I was surprised. The 6.0 had 4k on the Ultra. The 5.3 somewhere close to that. After that experience I tried the 02 Camry with nasty startup VVT rattle. Out with the Ultra, in with a supertech. If it was still rattling I could not hear it. Mostly gone! So the new Ultra was fine. A used Ultra made 3 different engines rattle. Supposedly synthetic media flows better than paper resin as it loads up. I'm thinking thats not true. And the filter was becoming a bottleneck.

Al posted a particle size vs engine wear chart from a Machinery lube article. I don't disagree. But I'm not sure extended dry starts are less damaging than the few extra microns removed by a high efficiency filter. Dirty oil is better than no oil right ?!? The article also states "Silica is Your Engine's Worst Enemy". I agree, why I'll never use a Chinese "cold air intake" tube, or a high flow air filter. I think a HE air filter has more importance than a HE oil filter. Rather choke off a some air than some oil.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted by Al
Originally Posted by tig1
Originally Posted by Trav
I don't worry too much about oil filters or their efficiency as long as the element remains in one piece, I don't want bits going into the oil galley. I do worry about the air filter, keeping the housing tight and properly sealed and the PCV system sealed and in good working order, that is where the dirt ingress occurs,

+1. The oil you use is far more important than the filter you use.

Not sure that's provable. I tend to think its not correct.

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/30697/choose-oil-filter


My 42 year experience with M1 oils has proven that to me when I have used about every mid range oil filter out there. Including the [censored].

 

[RazorsEdge]

Originally Posted by tig1
Originally Posted by Al
Originally Posted by tig1
Originally Posted by Trav
I don't worry too much about oil filters or their efficiency as long as the element remains in one piece, I don't want bits going into the oil galley. I do worry about the air filter, keeping the housing tight and properly sealed and the PCV system sealed and in good working order, that is where the dirt ingress occurs,

+1. The oil you use is far more important than the filter you use.

Not sure that's provable. I tend to think its not correct.

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/30697/choose-oil-filter


My 42 year experience with M1 oils has proven that to me when I have used about every mid range oil filter out there. Including the [censored].


It's ok Tig1 it seems nobody appreciate real world results so take it for what it is.

 

[bullwinkle]

Originally Posted by tig1
Originally Posted by Al
Originally Posted by tig1
Originally Posted by Trav
I don't worry too much about oil filters or their efficiency as long as the element remains in one piece, I don't want bits going into the oil galley. I do worry about the air filter, keeping the housing tight and properly sealed and the PCV system sealed and in good working order, that is where the dirt ingress occurs,

+1. The oil you use is far more important than the filter you use.

Not sure that's provable. I tend to think its not correct.

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/30697/choose-oil-filter


My 42 year experience with M1 oils has proven that to me when I have used about every mid range oil filter out there. Including the [censored] Fram Extra Guard.
FIFY! I wouldn't consider an EG filter to be mid range, it actually has a better than average efficiency rating of 95% @ 20 microns, and most have silicone ADBVs now. They should be fine for a standard manufacturer OCI, and if you want to go crazy like I do, there are other options.

 

[LeakySeals]

tig1 you still swear by MC filters?

 

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
…….if the ADBV was leaky, doing the test I did would allow trapped oil in the filter to leak out. If you don't believe that, do that same test and stick a small piece of wire or similar into a base hole to lift the ADBV up a hair and see what happens.
Before cutting a filter open, I do that with each filter. After removal, I allow the filter to drain base down for a period of time. Then later take some old Q tip centers or toothpicks to open a couple inlet holes. I look for and let more oil drain out before cutting open. Generally can see and note a respectable amount of oil after opening an inlet hole or two. Followed that procedure with a Nissan Gonher OEM filter last year, seemed very low to no oil drain. Explanation for that is thoroughly explained in this thread. Reason for start up rattle confirmed.

As for topic, I find it to be at the least a tad ironic. OP says done fussing over filters, and later posts an advertising screen shot of a filter with features, wondering if they're a good deal, and/or if the efficiency is "crap". All that, including but not limited to query about efficiency seems like some "fussing" to me. Put another way, thread seems to be a paradox.

As for the chart I now see posted with some regularity including this thread, while MachineryLube Mag given source credit, actual source is the oft discussed and debated 1988 GM Study.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted by LeakySeals
tig1 you still swear by MC filters?

I have used MC FL910S and MC FL 2017B (cartridge for the 2007 Fusion) for several hundreds of thousands of miles with no problems at all.

 

[Triple_Se7en]

Originally Posted by tig1
Originally Posted by LeakySeals
tig1 you still swear by MC filters?

I have used MC FL910S and MC FL 2017B (cartridge for the 2007 Fusion) for several hundreds of thousands of miles with no problems at all.

Tig
Can you and I go to the Casino someday? I have no luck at all and you are loaded with it.

 

[Job]

Six pages of fussing later it's like saying I am never eating cake again and the very same day you eat a whole cake.
I don't see much reason to fuss either since little new info is coming out and it is basically an I like this and you should too arguing topic. Just a bunch of arguing is all it really is since all has been hashed and rehashed until it scrolls finally off the page into the dust bin of old posts.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Originally Posted by tig1
Originally Posted by LeakySeals
tig1 you still swear by MC filters?

I have used MC FL910S and MC FL 2017B (cartridge for the 2007 Fusion) for several hundreds of thousands of miles with no problems at all.

Tig
Can you and I go to the Casino someday? I have no luck at all and you are loaded with it.

I don't gamble, I go with what is tried and proven.

 

[kstanf150]

And we go on and on and on and on
Are we done already !!!!