How Mobil Tested Mobil 1 EP

[1sttruck]

But per the data that was previously posted, it would still end up with 0.001 in of wear in 150 hrs at 100mph for a good 5W20. If you're on the road for an hour a day you'd see that much wear in about six months.

"But I'm sure you could put a quality 5w20 in a Honda and run it flat out on the AutoBahn from one end of the country to the other with nary a problem."

 

[1sttruck]

"And I have to laugh that we went from heresay by someone with a biased opinion on cam wear issues by a few amateur racers without any details on the engines, modifications, environment, etc, to 40 wt solves all cam wear issues on all race cars."

I have to laugh when someone suggests that amateur racers didn't solve cam wear problems due to Mobil 1 PCMO with Delvac 1. Club racers tend to rely upon what works, and will use things that work better. It doesn't matter what the details are, as 'people using Mobil 1 PCMO have cam wear problems, 'people solve cam wear problems with Delvac 1' is the observation of interest, a useful data point that is supported by 'common sense'.

As I stated previously...."1. Less wear probably due to increased levels of anti-wear additives in Delvac 1 and being a thicker oil, a hypothesis supp orted by lots of observations and what we know about wear protection provided by oil.

Will change mind when evidence starts suggesting that Mobil 1 PCMO provides better wear protection than Delvac 1,

or that thinner oil provides better wear protection than thicker oil,

or that less anti-wear additives provide better protection than more. "

If you have evidence which suggests that a 5W20 PCMO provides better wear protection than Delvac 1 please provide it. Lots of people would like using a light oil that for some reason works better than a heavier oil with a more robust additive package.

 

[TooSlick]

The engine in the Sequence IIIG test is running on a dyno in a clean room under constant load. This is different from an actual application where the engine may sits for days at a time, rust/corrosion (cam pitting IS a form of stress corrosion), can and does occur, and dirt/silicon & perhaps excessive fuel is entering the system.

In the real world, a heavier oil, with a higher additive treat level, will almost always show significantly lower rates of wear (unless the ambient temps are extremely cold). The tradeoff of using a 40wt lubricant is a small loss of performance - particularly at high rpms....

The SAE 5w-40 grade is an excellent compromise viscosity for many applications and works just fine in domestic/japanese motors.

 

[427Z06]

quote:

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Originally posted by TooSlick:
The engine in the Sequence IIIG test is running on a dyno in a clean room under constant load. This is different from an actual application where the engine may sits for days at a time, rust/corrosion (cam pitting IS a form of stress corrosion), can and does occur, and dirt/silicon & perhaps excessive fuel is entering the system.

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In order to have a statistically meaningful test of limited duration and costs may dictate that a "dyno in a clean room under constant load" is the best compromise given the test objectives. Field tests are almost always used to verify that the "lab" tests are returning results that correlate well with real world conditions.

And if you still don't except wear test done in a "dyno in a clean room under constant load" point me to the study that showed that a 5W40 in a Honda or Ford modular produced significantly less wear than a 10w30 of similar quality in a real world test. And remember, measureable doesn't necessarily mean significant.

As far as corrosion concerns, I've had engines sit for weeks, sometimes months before I tore them down, and I'm sorry, I just don't see all this corrosion you're talking about. And besides, aren't corrosion tests part of the certification process.

quote:

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Originally posted by TooSlick:
In the real world, a heavier oil, with a higher additive treat level, will almost always show significantly lower rates of wear (unless the ambient temps are extremely cold). The tradeoff of using a 40wt lubricant is a small loss of performance - particularly at high rpms....

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More is not always better. Do you take 10 aspirins when the recommended dose is 2? Ask MolaKule if more additives is almost always better. And why don't we all run 25w60 in everything with moving parts during the summer months if the increased viscosity provides so much more wear protection?

quote:

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Originally posted by TooSlick:
The SAE 5w-40 grade is an excellent compromise viscosity for many applications and works just fine in domestic/japanese motors.

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Other grades work just as well if not better too. It's all where you want to draw the line. And scaring people into ignoring the manufacturers recommendations when there's isn't clear evidence that a problem exists in the first place is unconscionable in my book.

 

[TooSlick]

Why settle for mediocre performance in terms of valve train protection, when excellent performance is available for the same price?

 

[427Z06]

quote:

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Originally posted by TooSlick:
Why settle for mediocre performance in terms of valve train protection, when excellent performance is available for the same price?

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What's mediocre about the performance of something that is just as good, if not better for the same price? Wearing a bullet proof vest while in your house isn't going to extend your life any unless you live in a really bad neighborhood.

 

[427Z06]

One other point. If HDEO 5w40 is needed in a Honda, Ford modular, or LSx engine, what the heck do you use in a modern big diesel where the cylinder peak pressure is about doubled, with a wider pressure pulse width and maximum power is achieved at a low 2200-3500 RPMs? Gee, if you put something like a 0w30 in one of those, it'll probably blow up in seconds! Oh wait a minute, doesn't CAT make a Arctic DEO SYN SAE 0w30 that's OK to use up to 86F ambient air temps?

 

[TooSlick]

The Honda, S2000 allows the use of SAE 5w-40 for all temps. The other grade recommended is 10w30 - in contrast to the 5w-20 speced for most of their other motors.

Makes perfect sense to me, if you want this 9000 rpm engine to outlast the warranty.

 

[buster]

It's ridiculous to make broad, sweeping generalizations that M1 or any oil causes premature cam wear. Some oils/viscosities work better in some engines then others. In some engines/applications, it might, others it won't.

I also think it's ridiculous to say M1 causes excessive valvetrain wear. Especially based on BITOG UOA's. These oils go through more extensive testing then what we provide in the form of a $20 UOA. On top of that, most people on here create a paranoia by suggesting "wear is high!" when reality is it's in the normal range.

You then have to consider the detergency package of the oil. I found this on another website and it relates to what we see with dino oils vs synthetics....and to some degree, oils like RL.

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You will find tha Mobil 1 will clean your system and the detergent/dispersant system will hold more particles in suspension (ie your normal oil may be dropping out wear metals in sludge at the bottom of the sump which is not seen in your oil sample). You should also remember that the wear metal analysis done by most UOA labs is based on ICP and the wear metal particles reported are less than 10 microns in size. Some of the iron you are seeing is in the form of metal soaps which will be more soluble in a good detergent/dispersant package.
Mobil did some engine tests switching from a mineral oil to Mobil 1 and saw increased wear metals in UOA. Engine strip down actually showed less wear in comparison to the mineral based engines.

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Molekule has said repeatedly that some of the Ester based Jet oils showed high wear but when torn down, no wear was detected.

This was just someone's opinion. No idea how accurate it is. Technology is available (moly for example) to create thinner oils that protect as well or better then thicker oils of the past. It's called progress.

 

[TooSlick]

Buster,

Feel free to have AVLube do a complete particle count test on your next M1, 5w30 sample (it only runs about $35.00). Then repeat the same service interval using Delvac and repeat the particle count test. You'll see right away what I'm talking about....

Go ahead, make a liar out of me...

 

[buster]

quote:

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Go ahead, make a liar out of me...

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Ted, I don't think your a liar. (Your not the Amsoil D.Jobber in S.Jersey telling people Mobil 1 turns to Gell in Toyotas

) I'm just not convinced that it's as black and white as you make it out to be. I wish it was, and maybe it is, but I doubt it. As I said earlier, I bet if all the RL users based their opinions off BITOG RL UOA's, RL would have no one using their oils. Think about it.....and it's not just Pb that is high with RL many times.

 

[TooSlick]

The M1, 5w30 and 0w30 do not perform all that well in controlled bench tests designed to evaluate valve train protection - even in comparison to a number of conventional lubricants. Thats the key piece of data that correlates with these high iron numbers. There is no component of corrosive wear in this test,it's strictly metal to metal wear. This also eliminates any theory about how well the oil does - or does not - suspend particles and the effect that would have on UOA's.

Of course, the Shell Four Ball Wear test is a severe overtest, in that the pressures you see (> 50,000 psi at the start), are much higher than in normal operation. But it makes me wonder how well this additive chemistry performs under boundary lubrication conditions?

The M1 formulations almost always show very low bearing wear, so I don't think it's an issue of being too thin for these applications. FWIW, I believe even a "thinned", 0w30 version of the Delvac chemistry would significantly outperform the M1 chemistry....

 

[buster]

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FWIW, I believe even a "thinned", 0w30 version of the Delvac chemistry would significantly outperform the M1 chemistry....

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Could very well be. I've said all along that it's chemistry. I never though M1 being thin and not meeting the ACEA A3 spec had anything to do with Fe #'s we see. The chemical aspect of it makes it hard. Again, I'm just thinking about the chemical side of it....such as RL.

 

[427Z06]

quote:

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Originally posted by TooSlick:
The M1, 5w30 and 0w30 do not perform all that well in controlled bench tests designed to evaluate valve train protection - even in comparison to a number of conventional lubricants. Thats the key piece of data that correlates with these high iron numbers. There is no component of corrosive wear in this test,it's strictly metal to metal wear. This also eliminates any theory about how well the oil does - or does not - suspend particles and the effect that would have on UOA's.

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This is another one of those sweeping generalizations that are misleading in my book. Would a misapplication of M1 5w30 and 0w30 in certain engines lead to additional valvetrain wear? Possibly. Is it going to significantly shorten the life of every engine out there? I doubt it.

M1 5w30 has been shipped with new LT-x and LSx Corvette engines for over 10 years now. I would think the internet would be choked with valvetrain failures stories on these engines if such were the case.

 

[TooSlick]

Factory fill lubricants are typically the "lowest bidder" that meets the minimum spec. In this case the advertising value alone associated with the Corvette link is worth almost giving the stuff to GM. If you can get them to put a M1 symbol right on the oil cap, so much the better.

As much as anything else this is why you find M1 in the LS-1 engines, as anyone in the industry will attest to. It's also why you find BMW recommending only Castrol lubricants on their oil filler caps.

Advertising and propulsion engineering are in no way related disciplines...

 

[Drstressor]

I think that you guys may be obsessing over nothing. The valve train is the only adjustable engine component. A little extra wear in that compartment would be off little significance with respect to overall engine life as long as the valve clearance is kept within specs . How many engines fail because of valve train wear before the rings and bottom end go? Even TDI's that show cam lobe scoring with certain oils seem to run fine anyway.

 

[427Z06]

quote:

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Originally posted by 1sttruck:
It doesn't matter what the details are, as 'people using Mobil 1 PCMO have cam wear problems, 'people solve cam wear problems with Delvac 1' is the observation of interest, a useful data point that is supported by 'common sense'.

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I know many people who race, including myself, that don't have cam wear issues when using Mobil 1 PCMO. The problem is therefore limited to certain engines. One of my engines has been raced extensively over the years and for many miles using Mobil 1 PCMO and it has no cam wear issues.

 

[427Z06]

quote:

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Originally posted by Drstressor:
I think that you guys may be obsessing over nothing. The valve train is the only adjustable engine component. A little extra wear in that compartment would be off little significance with respect to overall engine life as long as the valve clearance is kept within specs . How many engines fail because of valve train wear before the rings and bottom end go? Even TDI's that show cam lobe scoring with certain oils seem to run fine anyway.

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Exactomundo! But Teddles like to pose generalized and often unsubstantiated statements which are quickly debunked, so he moves on to another, then another, and another until you end up like two old ladies bickering at the deli counter on who is next in line.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
427Z06 - how did you know I spent that time at the Deli counter? I definitely had Number 5w40, Ted should have collected a Number too (the only one left was 0w40), but then he prefers to argue! I simply wouldn't give him my number

You said;
"Other grades work just as well if not better too. It's all where you want to draw the line. And scaring people into ignoring the manufacturers recommendations when there's isn't clear evidence that a problem exists in the first place is unconscionable in my book."

This is exactly the point I make about Manufacturer Approvals

Now Ted, I have searched everywhere here for trashed valve train components. I can't find any anywhere - even the parts people (at the Euro Dealer's HO) tell me they are slow sellers Where are they kept Ted??

By the way Ted, what is the oil's temperature exiting from your Turbos??

Regards
Doug

 

[TooSlick]

I've consistently said that the iron levels in certain engines using the Mobil 1, xw-30 and 0w-40 oils are significantly higher than for other top tier synthetic lubes. The only thing that has varied in my posts concerns the specific wear mechanism (adhesive wear and/or corrosive wear?), that is causing these high iron levels. I do believe it is due mainly to the additive chemistry and not the basestock. The reason I say this is that Amsoil has used Mobil PAO's and some of their esters for over 25 years and their formulations always show very low iron wear. In fact, some of Mobils' conventional oils and synthetic blends also show lower iron levels in UOA's, so it is very puzzling. I'd love to see a technical explanation from a retired Mobil lube engineer as to why this is so. Perhaps some disgruntled guy from their original synthetic lube group, who retired rather than work for the Exxon management after the takeover.

I'd also be VERY interested to know how the add pack for Delvac 1 was developed??? - it works so much better than Mobil 1 in some of these engines that it's hard for me to believe the same company makes both products.

I must say that Doug writes very coherently for an old retired (Mobil?) guy who's drinking that very fine, Australian Shiraz and Cabernet all the time...

It's good to be the king!

Doug,

I'd say the localized heating due to the turbo bearings results in oil temps > 300F/150C at the exit of the turbo. This unit also has a water jacket and an electric coolant pump that continues to circulate fluid through the housing for 5-10 minutes after shutdown. I would not have purchased a vehicle with this turbo engine otherwise.

Ted