I'd buy that if they were not then selling them for $75 as an option.
How long is this 'end' going to drag on for?
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Originally Posted By: lovcom
Very wrong! Even if Japan has less of a burden per car then GM, GM could have beat Japan if they had built better cars then Japan. Americans are people that demand the best at nearly any price. If GM made a car that was better then an Accord or Civit, and costs 20% more then those Japanese cars, Americans would pay the 20% more. However, Americans realize that GM cars are mostly mediocre, and sub-standard against the Japanese cars, and even when priced 20% LOWER then Japanese cars, Americans will pay more for the Japanese cars.
Most Americans wouldn't know what was good for them if it bit them in the [censored]. A depressing number of people won't even walk into a showroom now to look at American cars, because they're so brainwashed they're practically zombies. Last time I checked, many Americans only "realize" what the ads they see on TV tell them they should realize.
Keep buying Japanese cars, shopping at Walmart, and buying other imported garbage. Don't come crying to me when you're out of a job. At least you'll have your poorly assembled, overpriced Toyota.
Very wrong! Even if Japan has less of a burden per car then GM, GM could have beat Japan if they had built better cars then Japan. Americans are people that demand the best at nearly any price. If GM made a car that was better then an Accord or Civit, and costs 20% more then those Japanese cars, Americans would pay the 20% more. However, Americans realize that GM cars are mostly mediocre, and sub-standard against the Japanese cars, and even when priced 20% LOWER then Japanese cars, Americans will pay more for the Japanese cars.
Most Americans wouldn't know what was good for them if it bit them in the [censored]. A depressing number of people won't even walk into a showroom now to look at American cars, because they're so brainwashed they're practically zombies. Last time I checked, many Americans only "realize" what the ads they see on TV tell them they should realize.
Keep buying Japanese cars, shopping at Walmart, and buying other imported garbage. Don't come crying to me when you're out of a job. At least you'll have your poorly assembled, overpriced Toyota.
Originally Posted By: mstrjon32
I'm not saying they don't have problems. But our attitude should be that we need to FIX THEM, whatever it takes, be it remove the existing CEO's, renegotiate union contracts, provide responsible government oversight, etc.
I'm so tired of this "screw GM" I'll just buy an import attitude. That's the kind of shameful laziness and self-centered attitude that is the undoing of America.
*sigh*
There is a fix, it is called Chapter 11 bankruptcy.
I'm not saying they don't have problems. But our attitude should be that we need to FIX THEM, whatever it takes, be it remove the existing CEO's, renegotiate union contracts, provide responsible government oversight, etc.
I'm so tired of this "screw GM" I'll just buy an import attitude. That's the kind of shameful laziness and self-centered attitude that is the undoing of America.
*sigh*
There is a fix, it is called Chapter 11 bankruptcy.
I have no problem buying American cars if they look good, but they don't, as does >50% of Japanese and European out there.
If Ford Mondeo is here, I might reconsider.
If Ford Mondeo is here, I might reconsider.
Originally Posted By: MNgopher
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
But, if you want to get literal, I have to object to your example of the airlines for two reasons:
1. You can argue that the government was partially accountable to the airlines for their failure since the government could have prevented 9/11.
2. As in the case of the Big Three, the government has a very real interest in preventing their failure that has nothing to do with charity or socialistic impulses. It's an act of self-preservation and in the interest of the country.
I'll keep it short. If one thinks 9/11 is the sole cause of the airlines needing their bailout, one is ignoring the fact that the airlines were already in terrible shape headed into the fall of 2001. 9/11 accelerated the failure that was going to happen, but was not in and of itself the cause.
As to item 2, we'll have to agree to disagree. Do I think GM makes some good contributions to our country? Yes. Do I think that the failure of GM or Chrysler means the end of the auto industry in the US? Not by a longshot. Instead, it could provide the actual impetus to change. The idea that a company is too big to "fail" is a huge part of the problem.
I think GM could make it on its own if the credit market wasn't frozen. Last night there was a news story, local mid-sized rental company (200 emp.) replaces a fleet of GM vans every year, always has had outstounding credit. This year goes to get 1000 new GM vans financed from GMAC and gets turned down.
So he rents a billboard on a local freeway advertising he needs a creditor to finance the loan for 1000 GM vehicles.
He has had 28 calls and is working with 2 other creditors.
It was cheaper to rent the billboard than spend all the time interviewing banks to see which ones would lend money right now.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
But, if you want to get literal, I have to object to your example of the airlines for two reasons:
1. You can argue that the government was partially accountable to the airlines for their failure since the government could have prevented 9/11.
2. As in the case of the Big Three, the government has a very real interest in preventing their failure that has nothing to do with charity or socialistic impulses. It's an act of self-preservation and in the interest of the country.
I'll keep it short. If one thinks 9/11 is the sole cause of the airlines needing their bailout, one is ignoring the fact that the airlines were already in terrible shape headed into the fall of 2001. 9/11 accelerated the failure that was going to happen, but was not in and of itself the cause.
As to item 2, we'll have to agree to disagree. Do I think GM makes some good contributions to our country? Yes. Do I think that the failure of GM or Chrysler means the end of the auto industry in the US? Not by a longshot. Instead, it could provide the actual impetus to change. The idea that a company is too big to "fail" is a huge part of the problem.
I think GM could make it on its own if the credit market wasn't frozen. Last night there was a news story, local mid-sized rental company (200 emp.) replaces a fleet of GM vans every year, always has had outstounding credit. This year goes to get 1000 new GM vans financed from GMAC and gets turned down.
So he rents a billboard on a local freeway advertising he needs a creditor to finance the loan for 1000 GM vehicles.
He has had 28 calls and is working with 2 other creditors.
It was cheaper to rent the billboard than spend all the time interviewing banks to see which ones would lend money right now.
The last solid year for the American auto industry was 1978. U.S. cars were mostly awesome back then. Then GM made what must be the most expensive mistake in corporate history. They spent $4 Billion(in '79 dollars) developing the X-cars. Probably a drop in the bucket compared to the collective cost of burning the greatest consumer on Earth, the American car customer. The Chevy Citation had to do more for Toyota than the Corolla ever could have. I know. I know. "They were good cars." Sure they were. And Roseanne Barr looks hotter in a bikini than Jennifer Lopez.
There were a lot of examples that blew everyones mind from all 3 automakers. By the mid 80's paint quality on a Honda Accord was higher than probably any car built in America. People notice that kind of thing. Particularly when the car needs to be repainted before you're done making payments on it.
Before anyone misinterprets my perspective you should know I do not want to lose the American auto industry. In fact the only reason I'm so mad is because I care about it. I'd love to see it resurrected and thrive again. It's possible. It's worth it too.
You have to understand that excellence doesn't require that people make excuses for it. If you think shaming people to Buy American is the means to recovery, then you are narrow-minded enough to run one of these companies.
If these companies go bankrupt it will be much worse than most people think. Unfortunately the UAW is a severe obstacle to viability.
There were a lot of examples that blew everyones mind from all 3 automakers. By the mid 80's paint quality on a Honda Accord was higher than probably any car built in America. People notice that kind of thing. Particularly when the car needs to be repainted before you're done making payments on it.
Before anyone misinterprets my perspective you should know I do not want to lose the American auto industry. In fact the only reason I'm so mad is because I care about it. I'd love to see it resurrected and thrive again. It's possible. It's worth it too.
You have to understand that excellence doesn't require that people make excuses for it. If you think shaming people to Buy American is the means to recovery, then you are narrow-minded enough to run one of these companies.
If these companies go bankrupt it will be much worse than most people think. Unfortunately the UAW is a severe obstacle to viability.
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
You have to understand that excellence doesn't require that people make excuses for it. If you think shaming people to Buy American is the means to recovery, then you are narrow-minded enough to run one of these companies.
Thank you. My sentiments exactly.
You have to understand that excellence doesn't require that people make excuses for it. If you think shaming people to Buy American is the means to recovery, then you are narrow-minded enough to run one of these companies.
Thank you. My sentiments exactly.
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
There were a lot of examples that blew everyones mind from all 3 automakers. By the mid 80's paint quality on a Honda Accord was higher than probably any car built in America. People notice that kind of thing. Particularly when the car needs to be repainted before you're done making payments on it.
your right paint quality was better on some Japanese cars, but from what I told (true or not?) the american goverment had pollution and saftey (toxic fumes) standards that the japanese didn't have worry about
There were a lot of examples that blew everyones mind from all 3 automakers. By the mid 80's paint quality on a Honda Accord was higher than probably any car built in America. People notice that kind of thing. Particularly when the car needs to be repainted before you're done making payments on it.
your right paint quality was better on some Japanese cars, but from what I told (true or not?) the american goverment had pollution and saftey (toxic fumes) standards that the japanese didn't have worry about
Originally Posted By: MillerMan
your right paint quality was better on some Japanese cars, but from what I told (true or not?) the american goverment had pollution and saftey (toxic fumes) standards that the japanese didn't have worry about
That's funny, because I just helped a friend change the oil in a '99 Accord yesterday and the paint all over the hood, trunk and roof is oxidized and looks terrible. And, I know that he waxes the car and tries to take care of the paint. It's also not the first Honda I've seen with awful looking oxidized paint.
GM has had excellent paint quality for at least the past 20 years, with the exception of the color white during the mid-90's.
your right paint quality was better on some Japanese cars, but from what I told (true or not?) the american goverment had pollution and saftey (toxic fumes) standards that the japanese didn't have worry about
That's funny, because I just helped a friend change the oil in a '99 Accord yesterday and the paint all over the hood, trunk and roof is oxidized and looks terrible. And, I know that he waxes the car and tries to take care of the paint. It's also not the first Honda I've seen with awful looking oxidized paint.
GM has had excellent paint quality for at least the past 20 years, with the exception of the color white during the mid-90's.
Originally Posted By: mstrjon32
Originally Posted By: MillerMan
your right paint quality was better on some Japanese cars, but from what I told (true or not?) the american goverment had pollution and saftey (toxic fumes) standards that the japanese didn't have worry about
That's funny, because I just helped a friend change the oil in a '99 Accord yesterday and the paint all over the hood, trunk and roof is oxidized and looks terrible. And, I know that he waxes the car and tries to take care of the paint. It's also not the first Honda I've seen with awful looking oxidized paint.
GM has had excellent paint quality for at least the past 20 years, with the exception of the color white during the mid-90's.
I'll have to disagree there. My dad's 89 Chevy Berretta had paint chipping everwhere. it was so bad, I was embarassed to ride in it.
Originally Posted By: MillerMan
your right paint quality was better on some Japanese cars, but from what I told (true or not?) the american goverment had pollution and saftey (toxic fumes) standards that the japanese didn't have worry about
That's funny, because I just helped a friend change the oil in a '99 Accord yesterday and the paint all over the hood, trunk and roof is oxidized and looks terrible. And, I know that he waxes the car and tries to take care of the paint. It's also not the first Honda I've seen with awful looking oxidized paint.
GM has had excellent paint quality for at least the past 20 years, with the exception of the color white during the mid-90's.
I'll have to disagree there. My dad's 89 Chevy Berretta had paint chipping everwhere. it was so bad, I was embarassed to ride in it.
Originally Posted By: mstrjon32
GM has had excellent paint quality for at least the past 20 years, with the exception of the color white during the mid-90's.
The trunk, roof and hoods were photosensitive. GM should have recommended that the vehicles only be driven at night. This way the fenders and doors would match the rest of the car during the length of ownership.
GM has had excellent paint quality for at least the past 20 years, with the exception of the color white during the mid-90's.
The trunk, roof and hoods were photosensitive. GM should have recommended that the vehicles only be driven at night. This way the fenders and doors would match the rest of the car during the length of ownership.
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
The trunk, roof and hoods were photosensitive. GM should have recommended that the vehicles only be driven at night. This way the fenders and doors would match the rest of the car during the length of ownership.
I suppose Honda should have recommended that their black paint never be exposed to the elements either, then?
The trunk, roof and hoods were photosensitive. GM should have recommended that the vehicles only be driven at night. This way the fenders and doors would match the rest of the car during the length of ownership.
I suppose Honda should have recommended that their black paint never be exposed to the elements either, then?
Originally Posted By: mstrjon32
Originally Posted By: MillerMan
your right paint quality was better on some Japanese cars, but from what I told (true or not?) the american goverment had pollution and saftey (toxic fumes) standards that the japanese didn't have worry about
That's funny, because I just helped a friend change the oil in a '99 Accord yesterday and the paint all over the hood, trunk and roof is oxidized and looks terrible. And, I know that he waxes the car and tries to take care of the paint. It's also not the first Honda I've seen with awful looking oxidized paint.
GM has had excellent paint quality for at least the past 20 years, with the exception of the color white during the mid-90's.
My 96 Honda has this problem now, the clear coat is oxidizing right off the car. I have noticed the problem on several same vintage Hondas.
Originally Posted By: MillerMan
your right paint quality was better on some Japanese cars, but from what I told (true or not?) the american goverment had pollution and saftey (toxic fumes) standards that the japanese didn't have worry about
That's funny, because I just helped a friend change the oil in a '99 Accord yesterday and the paint all over the hood, trunk and roof is oxidized and looks terrible. And, I know that he waxes the car and tries to take care of the paint. It's also not the first Honda I've seen with awful looking oxidized paint.
GM has had excellent paint quality for at least the past 20 years, with the exception of the color white during the mid-90's.
My 96 Honda has this problem now, the clear coat is oxidizing right off the car. I have noticed the problem on several same vintage Hondas.
The biggest mistake that the big three made was having a business model that relied upon cheap gas and selling a status symbol to the US consumer, even though they all made lots of money selling especially the pickups and SUVs. The problem was that the market was fashion based, it was trendy to spend $40k to $60k on pickups and SUVs with low profile tires, butt warmers, leather, etc., as status symbols, and like most fashionable things that are expensive and are a stretch for the working and middle class it will be dropped like a rock when times get tough. The market was so profitable that Nissan, Toyota, and Honda all also got into the pickup / SUV game.
The sales job was so good that people driving other low mileage vehicles like minivans, sporty cars, larger V6 sedans, etc., were throwing stones at the pickup / SUV owners for crimes against nature, while they were getting the same or even worse mileage. With little in the way of higher mileage vehicles things turned quickly, and when credit dried up and job concerns surfaced things got downright ugly as there were few low cost models to offer. Everyone, the Japanese and others included, had stuffed so much worthless junk into vehicles that they became stupidly expensive, which is the price for having a status symbol of some sort to someone. People were spending over $30k for minivans, $20k for 'economy cars', etc.
Time after time in reviews people complained about some vehicle not having the latest trendy thing, so makers complied and provided what was asked for. Now everyone seems to want something different, and makers are scrambling, struggling to deliver. So GM should be like Toyota ? Toyota is now living with billions in losses, as is Nissan, and even Subaru has changed it's forecast to losses. Honda is still profitable, but they keep downgrading their forecast and it's down 90% from initial estimates.
Some comapnies will fail or will be merged, but there is lots of glass around so be careful when chucking those rocks.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20090116/ANA02/901169980
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/07/busine...rd,%20Micheline
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/business/worldbusiness/10nissan.html
The sales job was so good that people driving other low mileage vehicles like minivans, sporty cars, larger V6 sedans, etc., were throwing stones at the pickup / SUV owners for crimes against nature, while they were getting the same or even worse mileage. With little in the way of higher mileage vehicles things turned quickly, and when credit dried up and job concerns surfaced things got downright ugly as there were few low cost models to offer. Everyone, the Japanese and others included, had stuffed so much worthless junk into vehicles that they became stupidly expensive, which is the price for having a status symbol of some sort to someone. People were spending over $30k for minivans, $20k for 'economy cars', etc.
Time after time in reviews people complained about some vehicle not having the latest trendy thing, so makers complied and provided what was asked for. Now everyone seems to want something different, and makers are scrambling, struggling to deliver. So GM should be like Toyota ? Toyota is now living with billions in losses, as is Nissan, and even Subaru has changed it's forecast to losses. Honda is still profitable, but they keep downgrading their forecast and it's down 90% from initial estimates.
Some comapnies will fail or will be merged, but there is lots of glass around so be careful when chucking those rocks.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20090116/ANA02/901169980
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/07/busine...rd,%20Micheline
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/business/worldbusiness/10nissan.html
Originally Posted By: mstrjon32
I suppose Honda should have recommended that their black paint never be exposed to the elements either, then?
Don't forget that Toyota had serious problems with their 6 cyllinder engine too. So what? On balance their quality standards are incredible.
Black is one of Honda's least prevalent colors. We're talking perhaps 10,000 cars? That's a footnote rather than a norm. With GM it was a few hundred thousand vehicles, maybe more.
Why do you think that the Pontiac Vibe is a Toyota?
Why do the most Yankee fans live in New York rather than Chicago? Because people want to love their own. Don't you see that? There never was an American conspiracy to Buy Foreign. People got cooked too many times. They fell off the horse but they didn't get back on. They bought a Honda instead. It's hard to undo that level of damage.
I love GM. I love them more than I love Toyota. Do I think they make cars that are in the same league as Toyota? I wish they did. I hope they get the opportunity to try.
I suppose Honda should have recommended that their black paint never be exposed to the elements either, then?
Don't forget that Toyota had serious problems with their 6 cyllinder engine too. So what? On balance their quality standards are incredible.
Black is one of Honda's least prevalent colors. We're talking perhaps 10,000 cars? That's a footnote rather than a norm. With GM it was a few hundred thousand vehicles, maybe more.
Why do you think that the Pontiac Vibe is a Toyota?
Why do the most Yankee fans live in New York rather than Chicago? Because people want to love their own. Don't you see that? There never was an American conspiracy to Buy Foreign. People got cooked too many times. They fell off the horse but they didn't get back on. They bought a Honda instead. It's hard to undo that level of damage.
I love GM. I love them more than I love Toyota. Do I think they make cars that are in the same league as Toyota? I wish they did. I hope they get the opportunity to try.
Originally Posted By: mstrjon32
What a shame:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=ayp1BmnCDnnY&refer=japan
The whole industry is really getting pounded. So many lease owners instead of buyers these days too. When the lease is up people may opt for a good used car rather than a $350 monthly payment.
What a shame:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=ayp1BmnCDnnY&refer=japan
The whole industry is really getting pounded. So many lease owners instead of buyers these days too. When the lease is up people may opt for a good used car rather than a $350 monthly payment.
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
The whole industry is really getting pounded. So many lease owners instead of buyers these days too. When the lease is up people may opt for a good used car rather than a $350 monthly payment.
Probably a good call. Maybe we'll start to live within our means instead of financing everything. I've only financed one vehicle in my life, I don't plan to ever do so again. There is no feeling more horrible than being in debt.
The whole industry is really getting pounded. So many lease owners instead of buyers these days too. When the lease is up people may opt for a good used car rather than a $350 monthly payment.
Probably a good call. Maybe we'll start to live within our means instead of financing everything. I've only financed one vehicle in my life, I don't plan to ever do so again. There is no feeling more horrible than being in debt.
Not going to end anytime soon, apparently. Toyota's financial arm is reported to be negotiating for a government loan:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jTG7SuUsayqE6bO9GPluAfU5blewD96MIFOO1
Thankfully, they are at least going to their government, and not ours. And, with Uncle Sugar doling out another $30B in a credit line to AIG, that debacle is still full speed ahead.
It would certainly be interesting to read that viability plan.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jTG7SuUsayqE6bO9GPluAfU5blewD96MIFOO1
Thankfully, they are at least going to their government, and not ours. And, with Uncle Sugar doling out another $30B in a credit line to AIG, that debacle is still full speed ahead.
It would certainly be interesting to read that viability plan.
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