House electric questions

[y_p_w]

I try avoiding the use of any connector that is stab or snap/pinch such as wagos especially if theres going to be high amp draw. It's funny that back stabbing receptacles are so frowned upon yet push connectors and wagos are nothing more than a back stabbed device, but no one thinks twice about using those connectors. Where the push in stab style connectors really shine are "relamping" fluorescent fixtures with new ballasts or rewiring for LED.

Backstab outlets are a compromise reusing the same brass as a leaf spring that was used in the electrical contact. That’s the really weak point, where the spring pressure reduces over time. A better mechanism would use something like real spring steel pressing down on a plastic clamp, which is what WAGO lever connectors do.

Granted, wire nuts are cheap and effective. However, I see a benefit in lever connectors where the cause less damage to the conductors and they accept a wider range of wire sizes.

 

[supton]

"Reasonably good", I like that.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted by quint
thought I'd give the push connectors a try... after prying one apart, I'm not impressed and will be chucking the other 99 connectors into my miscellaneous electrical parts box to be thoroughly ignored and will go back to wire nuts.


Yeah those do not look very good to me either. I'd worry about it losing springy-ness with any heating, which might come about if any corrosion occurs. I opened up an LED light strip I got recently and it appears to have push in connectors, which might be fine in a light load, dunno about any "real" load though.

The Wago's feel spring loaded.

The Ideal In-Sure is spring loaded. I don't see it in the spec sheet, but it looks like there's a separate bus bar welded to the spring mechanism. The spec sheet says that it uses a tin-plated copper bus bar.

https://www.idealind.com/content/dam/electrical/assets/WireTermination/WireConnectors/PushIn/InSure/InSureModels32%2033%2034%20SpecSheet.pdf

OK - I found their sell sheet, which mentions that it uses a stainless steel insert. That's a far better material for a spring than copper or brass. I think it needs to be properly heat-treated to make for a better spring.

https://www.idealind.com/content/dam/electrical/assets/WireTermination/WireConnectors/PushIn/InSure/InSure%20PushIn%20Connector%20SellSheet.pdf

• Color-coded for easy identification
• Tin-plated copper bus system
• Check port for continuity testing
• Stainless steel inserts restrict pull-out
• Visual verification of connection
• Reduce repetitive motion fatigue – low insertion force and no-twist, push-in design

Push-in connectors seem to be pretty common in lighting, although they're supposedly OK for power outlets up to maybe 20A. WAGO's big business was in push-in connectors. Not sure about Grainger's price as I can't find multi-packs. WAGO also has a square 4-port push-in connector as well as double-row connectors for 6 or 8 ports.

https://www.grainger.com/product/WAGO-Push-In-Connector-Orange-798HM8

 

[y_p_w]

I looked up the patent that Ideal listed on its spec sheet. It states that the bus bar is riveted to the spring. So they're made of different materials (they say stainless steel) where they can be optimized for conductivity (bus bar) or elasticity (steel spring). However, I'm wondering what that does using dissimilar metals for corrosion/oxidation.

I think Ideal calls their spring extension a "finger" but other specifications I see call it a "tang".

https://ppubs.uspto.gov/dirsearch-public/print/downloadPdf/7507106

The busbar 40 is attached to the foot 44 of the spring member 42 by means of rivets 70 extending into the apertures of the foot described above. The rivets 70 on the bottom face 62 may be formed by upsetting a portion of the busbar, leaving depressions 72 in the top face 60.​

 

[y_p_w]

Backstab outlets are a compromise reusing the same brass as a leaf spring that was used in the electrical contact. That’s the really weak point, where the spring pressure reduces over time. A better mechanism would use something like real spring steel pressing down on a plastic clamp, which is what WAGO lever connectors do.

Granted, wire nuts are cheap and effective. However, I see a benefit in lever connectors where the cause less damage to the conductors and they accept a wider range of wire sizes.

I’ve been trying to fix up stuff over the past few weeks. I found a light fixture that was connected to power with a couple of these. Had issues with them and replaced them with a short length of 14 AWG Romex to connect between the fixture’s fixed stranded wire and power, along with several Ideal lever connectors. I couldn’t pull out the stranded wire from the connector, but one of the solid line wires seemed to be loose. I cut it off since there was enough wire remaining.

https://www.heavypowertw.com/pc253-pc253x-push-in-wire-connectors-dosenklemmen-compact-terminal-blocks.html

They claim it’s reusable if going to a bigger size wire in the same port. Not sure it’s worth reusing, although removing a solid wire was easy enough by twisting. I looked at the ports, and the steel portion is clearly deformed where there was a wire previously inserted. I pushed a wire into a previously unused port and took it out. The steel looked to be permanently deformed. To be fair, even Ideal recommends reuse only if the wire is at least the same size. That being said, I tried inserting wires into the Heavy-Power connector ports that were previously used, and an 18 AWG wire still seemed to be held in a port that used to hold a 12 AWG wire. Not very well though.

Not about using any kind of push in connector unless there’s no other choice or it’s disposable. Lever connectors just seem like a much better choice. The spring is always in compression. Opening just pushes down on the spring. If the lever mechanism breaks, the spring will still hold the wire in firmly.

 

[supton]

I can see if I had to buy 10k per month saving every penny... as a homeowner who might go through 100 every couple of years... to me there's zero savings. My time is worth more than the aggravation.

Then again I think I did use 'em on some LED lighting. Hey they were free (came with the lights).

 

[y_p_w]

I can see if I had to buy 10k per month saving every penny... as a homeowner who might go through 100 every couple of years... to me there's zero savings. My time is worth more than the aggravation.

Then again I think I did use 'em on some LED lighting. Hey they were free (came with the lights).

As far as I’m concerned, push-in connectors are one-time use. I get that a lot of commercial buildings use them, but those are typically accessible and can be cut off and any wire lengthened with more connectors.

 

[ctechbob]

I'm not bashing WAGO's, I use them all the time, but I do not use them in high amp circuits anymore. I had one melt down in my camper on a trip last year, and that was an end of me using them for mid/high amp constant draw applications.

This was in the control box to my 15,000 BTU AC unit.

 

[Rogueman2016s]

I just recently picked these up in the 2-port configuration for my job, where we retro-fit LED wafer lites in place of fluorescent cans or to re-lamp fluorescent fixtures with LED tubes.

Category: Push-In Wire Connectors

www.nsiindustries.com

 

[y_p_w]

I just recently picked these up in the 2-port configuration for my job, where we retro-fit LED wafer lites in place of fluorescent cans or to re-lamp fluorescent fixtures with LED tubes.

Category: Push-In Wire Connectors

www.nsiindustries.com

There are a lot of manufacturers of push-in connectors. Ideal is the only one I’ve seen at Home Depot though. I heard that WAGO dominates this market in Europe.

 

[Rogueman2016s]

There are a lot of manufacturers of push-in connectors. Ideal is the only one I’ve seen at Home Depot though. I heard that WAGO dominates this market in Europe.

The nsi brand was purchased at a local electrical supply house. Place called city electric. I’ve used wago they’re like all the rest

 

[JHZR2]

I'm not bashing WAGO's, I use them all the time, but I do not use them in high amp circuits anymore. I had one melt down in my camper on a trip last year, and that was an end of me using them for mid/high amp constant draw applications.

This was in the control box to my 15,000 BTU AC unit.

View attachment 218590

View attachment 218591

Was that connector rated for stranded conductor? I can see the conductor compressing but not enough, and there being some high resistance or arcing in there.

 

[y_p_w]

0Was that connector rated for stranded conductor? I can see the conductor compressing but not enough, and there being some high resistance or arcing in there.

That’s a WAGO 221. Stranded wire compatibility is a selling point. Their materials show stranded wires inserted straight in without twisting the strands. It's supposed to just press all the strands together flat against the bus bar.

The 221 Series Lever-Nuts®

Flexible, Fast and Safe!

www.wago.com

https://www.wago.com/medias/221-Series-LEVER-NUTS-60394792.pdf

 

[ctechbob]

Was that connector rated for stranded conductor? I can see the conductor compressing but not enough, and there being some high resistance or arcing in there.

I'd have to look. It is whatever Forest River used when they built it. Series 221 I believe they were.

 

[y_p_w]

I'd have to look. It is whatever Forest River used when they built it. Series 221 I believe they were.

221 is really just the style with the clear shell and those nylon levers. They have a variety of different types and I believe they still sell their older design, the 222.

The 221 comes in different colors and sizes. I think there’s one version that can take up to 10 AWG. I thought maybe it was the color, but it looks like it’s still the orange lever. Green is supposedly made with recycled materials and white is for “hazardous” locations.

null

<p>Nothing is too small to make a positive impact on our environment. Therefore, we have reimagined one of our best-known products – the 221 Series Splicing Connector.</p><div></div>

www.wago.com

Connection Technology <br> for Hazardous Areas

The 221 Series Compact Splicing Connector for hazardous areas offers entirely new design possibilities, particularly for the manufacturers of distribution boxes, terminal boxes, lights or electronic devices.

www.wago.com

Not quite sure what happened with yours. They’re pretty foolproof. Solid wires should be straight, but I don’t think it’s that critical provided the spring can place enough pressure on the bus bar. If it’s stranded, it doesn’t need to be twisted/tinned and the strands just splay out. Obviously it got really hot, but didn’t burn anything else in the box other than a little bit of charring of an insulator. I’m wondering if it’s rated for that type of use. I thought it was for buildings. They don’t recommend them for marine use or for vehicles. The only thing I can think of would be a poor connection where the resistance went up while there was a lot of current. In terms of safety, it would probably be better if it was just an open circuit.

Is that 12/2 Romex? It looks like the current version with a yellow sheath.

 

[ctechbob]

221 is really just the style with the clear shell and those nylon levers. They have a variety of different types and I believe they still sell their older design, the 222.

The 221 comes in different colors and sizes. I think there’s one version that can take up to 10 AWG. I thought maybe it was the color, but it looks like it’s still the orange lever. Green is supposedly made with recycled materials and white is for “hazardous” locations.

null

<p>Nothing is too small to make a positive impact on our environment. Therefore, we have reimagined one of our best-known products – the 221 Series Splicing Connector.</p><div></div>

www.wago.com

Connection Technology <br> for Hazardous Areas

The 221 Series Compact Splicing Connector for hazardous areas offers entirely new design possibilities, particularly for the manufacturers of distribution boxes, terminal boxes, lights or electronic devices.

www.wago.com

Not quite sure what happened with yours. They’re pretty foolproof. Solid wires should be straight, but I don’t think it’s that critical provided the spring can place enough pressure on the bus bar. If it’s stranded, it doesn’t need to be twisted/tinned and the strands just splay out. Obviously it got really hot, but didn’t burn anything else in the box other than a little bit of charring of an insulator. I’m wondering if it’s rated for that type of use. I thought it was for buildings. They don’t recommend them for marine use or for vehicles. The only thing I can think of would be a poor connection where the resistance went up while there was a lot of current. In terms of safety, it would probably be better if it was just an open circuit.

Is that 12/2 Romex? It looks like the current version with a yellow sheath.

Pretty sure it is, although when I was in there I didn't really pay close attention. The wiring on the brand new build was pretty atrocious, I'm sure they use wago's simply because they are dang near foolproof.