Honda and the 5W-20 Myth

[427Z06]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ray H:
The 5W-20s are already at least a semi-synthetic.

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Exactly, Ray H. Additionally, they're thick 5w-20s. Or looking at it the other way, they're thin semi-syn 5w30s.

Further, we have over 15 years experience with Full-Syn 5w30s in vehicles with over 150K miles. 5w-20s have been out for a couple of years and we have a couple dozen UOAs at best, with way too many varibles such as, engines, driving styles, climates, collection procedures, etc, to deduce anything definitive.

Finally, if you look at these threads you'll see some credible people don't hold UOAs as the last word in determining how well an oil protects your engine.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=006309

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004173

I'm not saying the 5w-20s are bad oils, all I'm saying is they might not be the perfect oil for all situations. It seems like some of you guys look at a few UOAs and then way to quickly decide you've found the "Holy Grail" of engine oils and reccomend it for every situation imaginable.

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by 427Z06:
5w-20s have been out for a couple of years and we have a couple dozen UOAs at best, with way too many varibles such as, engines, driving styles, climates, collection procedures, etc, to deduce anything definitive.

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Wrong. 5w20 and 10w30 were the very first multi-grade oils introduced in the mid 1950s. The first and only grade of Mobil 1 when it was introduced in the mid 1970s was 5w20. Ergo, 5w20 is not something new.

 

[427Z06]

quote:

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Originally posted by 427Z06:

quote:

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Originally posted by STSinNYC:
427Z06: To your questions: The 5W-20 UOAs from other Honda V6s under comparable driving conditions have been very good. We'll do a UOA sometime this year, but based on what we can see, (no oil consumption, oil in good shape (to the eye) when changed, engine looks clean), we're doing fine on dino 5W-20.

As to whether or not to switch to a semi-syn or full synthetic oil: The UOAs for those oils in Honda engines that I have seen have not been significantly better than the UOAs for the good 5W-20 dinos. So why spend more than twice as much per quart? But if you or others bring in some UOAs showing that the semi-syns and syns do better in the hotter conditions, Texas et al, then I would agree that the additional cost would be worth it.

I don't think MolaKule would agree with your comment that his additive formula is a "witches brew". 132 and LC are both proven additives, there are UOAs posted here to show that. Lower wear metals and improved viscosity reults.

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Again, totally subjective conclusion from what would be the worst way I know how to analyze oil, and then you support your conclusions based on questionable UOAs of OTHER peoples vehicles and conditions.

And I didn't mean any disrespect towards MolaKule, but I'm of the opinion that his "brew" may help someone out with specific problems, but the original poster of this topic hasn't even done a UOA on his oil yet to see if he has any problems.

 

[427Z06]

quote:

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Originally posted by G-Man II:

quote:

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Originally posted by 427Z06:
5w-20s have been out for a couple of years and we have a couple dozen UOAs at best, with way too many varibles such as, engines, driving styles, climates, collection procedures, etc, to deduce anything definitive.

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Wrong. 5w20 and 10w30 were the very first multi-grade oils introduced in the mid 1950s. The first and only grade of Mobil 1 when it was introduced in the mid 1970s was 5w20. Ergo, 5w20 is not something new.

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So...are your saying that the 5w-20s and 10w30s engine oils of the 1950's is comparable to today's in terms of base stock and additives?

Further, did those engines from the 1950's have 192 degree thermostats, EGR, PCV valves and use unleaded gas? Sounds like you're comparing apples and oranges to me.

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by 427Z06:

quote:

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Originally posted by G-Man II:

quote:

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Originally posted by 427Z06:
5w-20s have been out for a couple of years and we have a couple dozen UOAs at best, with way too many varibles such as, engines, driving styles, climates, collection procedures, etc, to deduce anything definitive.

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Wrong. 5w20 and 10w30 were the very first multi-grade oils introduced in the mid 1950s. The first and only grade of Mobil 1 when it was introduced in the mid 1970s was 5w20. Ergo, 5w20 is not something new.

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So...are your saying that the 5w-20s and 10w30s engine oils of the 1950's is comparable to today's in terms of base stock and additives?

Further, did those engines from the 1950's have 192 degree thermostats, EGR, PCV valves and use unleaded gas? Sounds like you're comparing apples and oranges to me.

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No, I believe I'm saying just what wrote, nothing more and nothing less. You said 5w20 had only been out a couple of years. I pointed out that you were wrong. Nothing was said about the quality of the oils or the design of the engines that these oils were put in back then.

 

[bottgers]

quote:

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Originally posted by ekpolk:

quote:

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Originally posted by bottgers:
The UOA's on this board alone clearly show that 5W-20 is superior to 5w30. Why do some people continue to think they're getting some kind of safety cushion by using 5w30?

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Are you willing to give me a warranty on my Toyota V-6 which calls for 5w30 (and reluctantly allows 10w30)? I doubt it.

My question remains unanswered: if it's so clearly superior, then why does at least one company who makes the stuff put a bold warning on their own product that it's absolutely not to be used unless the car specifically calls for it. Ever seen a warning like that on a bottle of 5w30 or 10w30 or any other grade for that matter???

This warning didn't just find its way onto the bottle by accident. They put it there for a reason. Someone please tell me what that reason is.

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Sorry, I can't answer your question, but I do know UOA's don't lie.

 

[tenderloin]

All of this lends great credibility to the notion that the specification of 5W-20 oils entails a great deal of politicking and gamesmanship.


To the contrary. All the hoops the car mfg. had to go through in regard to having 5W-20 oil available about everywhere, shows that there was NO BS! IF the companies wanted to use 5w20 oil for their testing to get whatever benefits they felt they could from this lighter weight oil, then they had to make sure, to the best of their ability, that 5W20 oil had a good chance of being mainstreamed, by dealers, retailers and consumers.

Seems like a whole lot of trouble for almost zero benefits....unless it does work..

but the 5w20 haters will have none of that. No, they now have to believe Ford and Honda spent millions (as well as the oil companies...)to produce and market across the board, 5W20 oil. Don't forget all the distributors and dealers that carry it.

All for .00000001 mpg. gain.

Yeah sure

BTW you think your dealer is using 30W because they belives it is better for your car? Or could they be trying to make a few extra bucks and or simplfy their inventory by stocking fewer oils. Maybe it was put in by mistake?

Call Honda. The next oil change will be 20W

[ April 20, 2004, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: tenderloin ]

 

[Bror Jace]

I'll admit I was a 5W20 skeptic for over a year when this stuff was first announced. However, the UOAs on this board do not lie. The stuff works quite well and I bet the MPG savings is closer to 5%

I think this is a dead issue. We know it was EPA driven. But we now know the stuff works very well.

--- Bror Jace

 

[Fred Bear]

The point was only that Honda has not followed the EPA letter as they agreed to do. (see first post)

As to what oil I will use...M1 5w30 I can find it everywhere

 

[427Z06]

quote:

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Originally posted by G-Man II:

quote:

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Originally posted by 427Z06:

quote:

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Originally posted by G-Man II:

quote:

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Originally posted by 427Z06:
5w-20s have been out for a couple of years and we have a couple dozen UOAs at best, with way too many varibles such as, engines, driving styles, climates, collection procedures, etc, to deduce anything definitive.

---

Wrong. 5w20 and 10w30 were the very first multi-grade oils introduced in the mid 1950s. The first and only grade of Mobil 1 when it was introduced in the mid 1970s was 5w20. Ergo, 5w20 is not something new.

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So...are your saying that the 5w-20s and 10w30s engine oils of the 1950's is comparable to today's in terms of base stock and additives?

Further, did those engines from the 1950's have 192 degree thermostats, EGR, PCV valves and use unleaded gas? Sounds like you're comparing apples and oranges to me.

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No, I believe I'm saying just what wrote, nothing more and nothing less. You said 5w20 had only been out a couple of years. I pointed out that you were wrong. Nothing was said about the quality of the oils or the design of the engines that these oils were put in back then.

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Very good, my bad. Now...other than pointing out my technically incorrect ancient historical data, was there some other reason to add this quip to the debate or do you always interject irrevalant facts in every post?

[ April 21, 2004, 02:08 AM: Message edited by: 427Z06 ]

 

[427Z06]

quote:

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Originally posted by bottgers:
Sorry, I can't answer your question, but I do know UOA's don't lie.

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You may want to read these threads:


http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=006309

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004173

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

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Sorry, I can't answer your question, but I do know UOA's don't lie.

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I'm not saying that UOAs "lie," nor do I think that 5w-20 is "bad" oil. But your conclusion that one class of oils (by vis grade) is superior to another based upon a collection of UOAs is, with all due respect, a huge (and unscientific) leap. All sorts of variables remain unconsidered (time, use in different engines, base oil variations, statistical significance, sampling variations, to name but a few). So we're left to speculate. And those less tolerant of uncertainty draw concrete conclusions for themselves. One thing we don't have to speculate about is this unusual warning on the 5w-20 bottle. Personally, I tend toward accepting recommendations to use thinner oils (they've done me fine), so I'm not simply rejecting 5w-20 just because it does not match my personal taste. JUst as surely, though, that warning was put there for a reason, and I want to know that reason.

[ April 21, 2004, 05:13 AM: Message edited by: ekpolk ]

 

[crossbow]

As per the discussion...

Here are some UOA's on the same model, same engine Mazda 6s and Mazda 6i.

http://www.mazda6tech.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=26&Itemid=36

 

[edvanp]

Speaking of 5w20, didn't have time to change the oil on my Montana Van before heading to Myrtle beach, but I did have a discount coupon for Firestone and an oil change, so I had them do it w/ the semi-synthetic since it was only $5 more ($19 total). When I drove away and checked the sheet, it said 5w20 was added (they use Kendall). The Van did well on the drive (24.5mpg) and I'm going to send it off for an UOA when I change it next month. Also, saw 5w20 dino at Minards last night.

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

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Originally posted by crossbow:
As per the discussion...

Here are some UOA's on the same model, same engine Mazda 6s and Mazda 6i.

http://www.mazda6tech.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=26&Itemid=36

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An interesting step in the right direction. Perusing the results, the only pattern that leapt out at me as being grossly predictable was the analysis on the factory fill oil, which contained high levels of what (I hope) is break-in debris.

Notice how the editor acknowledged the wide array of variables that are still in play, even when examining results for the same engine:

"The lab looks for certain ppm (parts per million) of various chemicals and minerals in the oil. This helps show a variety of things.

1) How well an oil protects a particular engine.
2) How your particular driving style is effecting your engine.
3) How a mod is effecting an engine's wear.
4) How long an interval you should run inbetween oil changes. (Based on 1,2, and 3)

UOA's are also useful in diagnosing engine problems before they become serious. Think of a UOA as blood work for your car. "

IMO, UOAs are useful clues about what happening in the engine from which they are taken, but to extend the blood work analogy, would anyone say my blood is "better" than someone else's because mine demonstrates a certain pattern of results from the lab? Again, I'm not a 5w-20 "hater," and frankly, I'd try it if my manual called for it, but it doesn't.

Does anyone have a series of 5w-20 UOA results where this oil has been used in an engine spec-ed for some other grade, and that does not suggest 5w-20 as an acceptable alternate?

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by 427Z06:
Very good, my bad. Now...other than pointing out my technically incorrect ancient historical data, was there some other reason to add this quip to the debate or do you always interject irrevalant facts in every post?

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This was relevant since you were using the relative "newness" of 5w20 as one of your major points. That being the case, the fact that 5w20 is not a "new" grade of motor oil at all is extremely relevant.

Also, most of what you listed regarding modern engines, i.e., PCV, unleaded gas, and 190 degree thermostats, actually put LESS stress on oil than the open crankcase ventilation systems, leaded gas, and 160 degree thermostats used in the "old days."

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

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Also, most of what you listed regarding modern engines, i.e., PCV, unleaded gas, and 190 degree thermostats, actually put LESS stress on oil than the open crankcase ventilation systems, leaded gas, and 160 degree thermostats used in the "old days."

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This is correct. While the stressors on oil have shifted overall, overall it was worse in the "old days." Carbureted fuel delivery resulted in much more fuel dilution. The fuel that ended up in the oil loaded it with lead, in addition to all the other crap that's still there. And the cooler running engines were actually a curse as to the oil, since it was far more difficult for the engine to "burn off" the volatile contaminants (water, gasoline, and the other bit part villains).

 

[Schmoe]

Gentleman, we are only comparing a few UOA's versus the millions of vehicles out there. I bet it's less than 1% of 1%. It's difficult for me to personally believe that a blanket statement like ALL 5W-20'S are good for ALL cars that are being recommended for it by the manufacturer. Ask Ford about them requiring Firestone tires on their Explorers and Expeditions a few years ago. I think the reason us "thicker is better salts" is that that stuff has been around for umpteen years, used in ka-billions of miles and we've never heard of anything bad happening to an engine because of the oil. Now, we have to be force fed the notion that these new 5W-20's, that have NOT been road proven enough and only a few UOA's out there, that this stuff is like manna from heaven? No, that won't happen. Going to take a lot more than UOA's to prove, at least, to me.

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

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Originally posted by bottgers:
I realize UOA's aren't going to tell you 100% of what you need to know about how good or bad a particular oil is, but short of running the same type of oil in your engine for the life of that engine, it's the only oil testing method we have. I tend to rely on UOA's. I've used them for years and I've never experienced an engine failure or any oil related problems.

BTW, I don't know what brand of 5W-20 you're referring to that has the warning, but I use Pennzoil's and it doesn't come with that warning.

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Despite what I've been saying in several threads, I DO believe in the UOAs myself. The problem for me is drawing overly broad conclusions from them. I think they should be confined to relatively narrow conclusions, unless and until proper standardized studies are done (sadly improbable -- who's going to pay...). It's like a blood test. If you take a tube from me, and perhaps a dozen other white males, you can tell things about us, but what conclusions can you draw generally about blood or the species from which it comes? Not many, although one tiny bit of info may literally save my life (my genetically high cholesterol is now controlled, for example). Now, if you catch a dozen men with high cholesterol who are all alive, obviously, can you conclude from that that they won't have heart disease in ten years? Of course not.

I knew someone would ask which oil that was with the warning.

I saw it at my tire shop a couple weeks ago when I re-tired my wife's Sequoia. I'll track it down this weekend (just for fun), take a digi of what I'm talking about, and post it Sunday-ish.

 

[james1]

I have an engine that calls for 5W-20. I have been using this oil since I purchased the vehicle last July and I have enjoyed watching the debate. In looking at the manufacturers/engines requiring this oil it seems that there may be a common theme and that is OHC engines. My Ford 4.6L is a SOHC with hydraulic chain tensioning and valve lifters. With multiple functions required of the oil and the fact alot is going on in the top end of these engines, it may be that flow/pumpability has been elevated in importance. Sort of like the multiple functions transmission oil must perform. I believe most of Ford's lineup is OHC and same with Honda. I have seen the statement repeatedly that the oil appears to be great for engines calling for this oil. I would tend to agree and maybe expand it to some OHC engines from previous model years. I am certainly no engine expert, but that's my 2 cents.